Squishy Brakes, help

[brendanr279]

I have a brake job that's kicking my butt.  Probably a simple solution but I'm just overlooking it.  92 Legacy L, 2WD, Manual.  I replaced my rear pads recently, led to finding a stuck caliper.  I replaced the calipers on the rear axle and bled the rear brake lines by gently pumping the brake (which I hear is not the best way to do it).  If I press the brakes when the engine is off, the pedal is real stiff, where you'd want it.  Once I turn the car on, the first time I press the pedal, it's all of a sudden goes from stiff to real soft.  Now 3 weeks later I turned the car on and the pedal is even worse, going almost all the way to the floor.  What's going on?  Do I just need to re-bleed and tighten up fittings, maybe on all 4 wheels?  Did I mess up my master cylinder and now its leaking fluid past the cylinder?

 

 

[MilesFox]

Is the car a manual 5spd? with hill holder equipped subarus, I find it best to depress the clutch while bleeding the rear brakes. That, and you want to follow the dual-diagonal sequence, starting from the RR wheel, LF, Then LR, then RF.

 

The MC may be failing if you find the pedal continues to sink after holding pressure to the pedal.

 

Also, with bleeding the brakes, it is best to use slow even strokes and to not bottom out the pedal between strokes, especially if bleeding the MC or installing one from new

[Ratpick]

Yeah, what he said. Also, recheck all your line connections and make sure no drippy drip. As good n smart as I think I am, I was stumped for a few minutes during my brake bleeding on my recent work. It was just staying spongy. One of the hard lines I had apart needed to be just a lil tighter.

[Ibreakstuff]

Using a mityvac or a power bleeder can help a ton. I find it much easier to do brake jobs solo with my miyvac as well. I usually pull and teflon the threads on the bleeders as well, but is probably overkill.

Spongy brakes annoy me so badly that I completely change the brake fluid in my wrx every few months, alternating ATE super blue and gold so I know when all the old fluid is flushed.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Ibreakstuff

[brendanr279]

I just bled the brakes, depressing the clutch, all 4 wheels, diagonal method.  Only drove it down the road and back, but it seems to be much stiffer than when I first replaced the calipers.  Hopefully it stays that way.  Thanks guys.

[MilesFox]

Make sure to burnish the pads in by cramming up the brake from 30 or 40 mph both forwards and back before riding them too long, as not to glaze the pads and rotors. Don't be afraid to lock em up. Avoid babying the brakes for the first few miles.

[idosubaru]

I Now 3 weeks later I turned the car on and the pedal is even worse, going almost all the way to the floor.  What's going on?

 

the 3 week delay is odd and bleeding wouldn't be the normal cause.  once bled, they should never need it again.  meaning, they don't "work at first" - then go bad in 3 weeks because of bleeding. 

 

the most probable issue based on what you've described is that there's a slow leak somewhere which eventually lowered the brake fluid in the master cylinder to the point you had soft brakes again.

that makes the most sense given the 3 week delay between symptoms.  

 

small rust leaks often form above the gas tank and don't show themselves by fluid under the  ground/on the car right away.  leaks in a caliper piston seal can also be hidden behind the piston boot dust covers.

 

1.  was the fluid low when you went to re-bleed them the second time?

Edited August 14, 2014 by grossgary

[MilesFox]

For you rust-belt subaru, inspect for rusty lines or leaks in these locations:

 

Anywhere the brake lines clip to the body

Where the brake line comes thru from inside the body, under the back seat, and down under the car behind the floorpan. There is also a proportioning valve here. Expect your leak to be in this area. Expect to replace lines as they will break when trying to do them. Use a flat jaw vise grip if your tool rounds them off.

 

^ This area is forward of the gas tank. None of the lines run above the tank, but rather along the inside of the frame adjacent to the gas tank. IF you have your doubts, bypass all new line with union fittings to get your length. IF the line is rusted at the grommet thru the body, you may be in for a compression fitting or making a flare, as these lines run thru the rocker sill and thru the firewall and will be impossible to replace with a continuous line unless you feel like taking the interior and dashboard out.

[1 Lucky Texan]

some people advise against full-stroke bleeding using the pedal precisely because it can tear-up seals in the MC in older cars.

[xdeadeye1]

Hi guys , digging up this old thread looking for advice .           1996 legacy wagon, 2.2,  AWD Automatic.   Brake pedal went to the floor today  all of a sudden.    Nursed it home.

Found  the region of the leak.   Its on a hardline,, from the right passenger side rear wheel.  The fluid flows down the side of the gas tank, I cant see where the heck the lines go.   Any advice is appreciated.

 

I never did brake lines before.  My neighbor has, and he will adivse me... but I gotta get on the ground and work underneath.

 

My plan  is either 1.  drop the tank and try to tie in to the other line in an accessible area with a union or something..

 

or 2.  Run an all new line under the car somewhere and try to tie it in ,, again in an accessible area with a union. 

 

I can read my hanes manual, but again I never did this before.            Thanks for any help or advice in advance.

 

John

Marietta OH

[montana tom]

You don't want to create a union. Track the line till you find a factory union and replace the line to there. You may need to drop the tank ... or determine start and stop points and feed a new line into place, with the fuel tank in place. Its a knuckle buster of a job , not hard but in tight spaces.  

[xdeadeye1]

Thanks.    When I drop the tank, anything I should be careful of? 

 

I know there are some with issues of the filler neck or something..   I'm at 204k miles and I don't want to break everything while I'm doing this.. 

[montana tom]

LOL;  be careful of everything... yup filler neck hose and breather hoses will be stuck , have patience...  with luck you may be able to just lower part of the tank leaving some connections alone ... make sure you support it so its not pulling on 20 year old rubber lines.  Figure out which brake line is leaking and where it goes, apx measure the length add plenty of extra ,then... if there is another line that is not leaking ... replace it as well ! Remove the old lines before going to the parts house... that way you will have the correct size fittings. When installing new lines work by hand only until threads are started, using a wrench will almost always cross the threads (you don't want to do that)  If you do not have one you will want a flair nut wrench for the fittings , most likely 10 mm, they will be tight and frozen .  its OK to break the  old line in half to aid removal if necessary. Use of vice grips on the old lines is common. Try not to use on the remaining original line. Replace all the lines and you will never have to do this again... just do the one that leaks and you will be experienced when you do this again next winter...  As a note, you buy brake line in generic lengths at any parts house , measure long and coil up the extra .

[heartless]

Personally, I would not try dropping the tank, you are looking at way more trouble trying to do that than it is worth.

 

buy enough line to reroute and just replace the existing back to a point of easier access.

[idosubaru]

dropping the tank is terrible in the rust belt and anyway, this is an easy and common repair. I've done it, i just talked my neighbor through it who had never done it before, and he got it done without much issue himself, i didn't even go over to help.

 

1. Buy stock hard line at any auto parts store and fittings and borrow a tubing bender (free from many national chains like Advance Auto)

2. Remove the rear seat and you'll see an access panel to on the passengers side where all the brake line fittings are - remove that access panel.

3. Run the hard line from that access panel to the appropriate caliper, bending it as needed as you go.

4. Splice the connections in place.

5. When you go to bleed a system that has been emptied it will TAKE FOREVER. I would get one of the assist devices - you'll literally have to pump the brakes 50 times and go through the bleed sequence 4 rotations sometimes to bleed a system tha's been emptied while driving sometimes.

 

Another option that's really easy and can be done in like an hour, and it's my preferred method of doing it now: run the hard line myself - drive the car to a shop with the EBrake - and have them finish up the fittings. I hate doing those flared fittings and they probably have better tools, certainly less damaged than the free rental stuff - and certainly better practice as they do this all the time. It's so cheap it's not worth me fiddling with it. But I have done it myself in the past and my neighbor friend pulled it off last month too if you're die hard DIY like I am sometimes too.

 

No way you want to even think about dropping the tank ever unless you absolutely must.

You'll have rusty fasteners, sheared bolts, and issues trying to drop a tank in the rust belt areas.

You're already dealing with rust issues - the line leaking - more than likely there's plenty more rust to go around.

Edited October 14, 2016 by grossgary

[xdeadeye1]

Thank you!

 

I did just what you said.. I had a neighbor help me with the crossover drivers side,, but I ran the lines just like you said and everything is working fine.

 

I used compressions fittings under the seat.  then a union on the line to connect two pieces to get over to the drivers side brakes.

 

I fished the line up over the rear end cross member.

 

I bled each line , didn't see bubbles anymore.  I only bled the back two brakes (didn't do the right front left rear left front right rear method) as I don't think I ran the system dry. The brakes are working.