Brakes changed, now pedal goes to the floor?

[Dinky26]

1999 Forester, auto, front disc, rear drum.  For my Nephew

 

I replaced the rotors and pads on the front.  Replaced the shoes and the gaskets on the wheel cylinder for the rear.

 

Before I had replaced the shoes on the back I had a brain fart  I had taken the drums off at this point   and started to flush the system, via the method of..

 

Front passenger

Rear driver

Front driver

rear passenger

 

Doing the front driver side, it sucked the fluid down quicker Dallas, got done there, and then I saw why    the rear driver side blew a boot off the the cylinder and spewed fluid all over    wow I felt stupid IDIOT...Brain farts I really hate em .

 

So at this point I figured I should replace the shoes.  

 

After finishing there I picked up where I left off with the flush and started with the drivers front side, then I thought I better do the rear drivers, did that and then did a couple of pumps from the front again and finished with the passenger rear.

 

After taking it for a test spin and having the pedal go to the floor, I jacked the front up and had my nephew pump the brakes the left seemed to grab okay but the right didn't seem to at all.  So I dropped that wheel off and then it seemed to grab okay, put wheel back on and it continued to grab.   Then  they started to act like they were getting to a firmer state.

 

When he got home he said they were going back to what they were doing when we tested it. . .I probably should have re done the flush all together at this point, except I was fried   .

 

With the flushing should I have restarted the whole process?  Could this make the brakes extra soft?

 

Or is there something else I should look at?

[1 Lucky Texan]

no mushy brakes before you started the work right? then is is almost certainly a problem still with air in the system. Occasionally, I have read that using full strokes on the pedal on older cars will tear-up the master cylinder seals. But, you need to confirm the lines are REALLY clear of air. bleed again - pay VERY close attention not to let the reservoir get low, and only stroke the pedal about 2 inches - not to the floor.

[Dinky26]

No they were not that mushy before hand.

 

 

no mushy brakes before you started the work right? then is is almost certainly a problem still with air in the system. Occasionally, I have read that using full strokes on the pedal on older cars will tear-up the master cylinder seals. But, you need to confirm the lines are REALLY clear of air. bleed again - pay VERY close attention not to let the reservoir get low, and only stroke the pedal about 2 inches - not to the floor.

Do they need to be quick strokes or just kind of slow and steady?

[MilesFox]

if the master cylinder reservoior bled out, it would have introduced an iar pocket that would have to be bled out again.

 

Here are a few tips for bleeding brakes with subaru:

 

1. Dual diagonal procedure stating with wheel furthest from the MC

2. Avoid bottoming the brake pedal. Perform shallow strokes until you build pressure. Avoid rapid brake strokes. 3 strokes at a time will suffice.

3. Watch the reservoior level and do not let the level get low enough to introduce an air bubble.

4. Flush till you have clear fluid. With manual transmission and a hill holder, depressing the clutch while bleeding the rear will be most effective.

[1 Lucky Texan]

I use a valve gadget like this;

 

 

it works OK, I use a clip and a jar and sorta have to get creative when I attach it, but it lets me do the job alone. Don't open the bleeders too far, air can get in past the threads.

Edited September 2, 2014 by 1 Lucky Texan

[jarl]

Occasionally, I have read that using full strokes on the pedal on older cars will tear-up the master cylinder seals.

I've had this problem before. The corrosion at the end of the unusually long stroke you use when bleeding the brakes damages the seals on the piston.

[Dinky26]

if the master cylinder reservoior bled out, it would have introduced an iar pocket that would have to be bled out again.

 

Here are a few tips for bleeding brakes with subaru:

 

1. Dual diagonal procedure stating with wheel furthest from the MC

2. Avoid bottoming the brake pedal. Perform shallow strokes until you build pressure. Avoid rapid brake strokes. 3 strokes at a time will suffice.

3. Watch the reservoior level and do not let the level get low enough to introduce an air bubble.

4. Flush till you have clear fluid. With manual transmission and a hill holder, depressing the clutch while bleeding the rear will be most effective.

I am getting conflicting info on the order into which order of bleeding the system

 

IE:  passenger front, driver rear,driver front, passenger rear

 

I am guessing Miles you have done it your way on the vintage of car in question here.

 

 

 

Many Thanks for all the input guys!!  

[Dinky26]

I've had this problem before. The corrosion at the end of the unusually long stroke you use when bleeding the brakes damages the seals on the piston.

Oh crap. . .

 

So I could be looking at a piston seal overhaul

[Dinky26]

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/attachments/f68/171369d1409678255-99-forester-squish-brakes-brake-bleeding-squence.jpg

[Fairtax4me]

Subaru recommends you start the bleed procedure at the front and cross cross. I've always had good luck starting with the brake furthest from the master cylinder and working to the closest.

 

You could still have air in the system. It's very hard to get all of the air out if the system goes completely dry.

 

When the seals pop out of the rear wheel cylinders you're better off to just replace them. Did you replace both cylinders as well as the shoes?

 

Incorrectly adjusted rear shoes can cause a low-pedal condition. After a few dozen pumps of the brakes the self adjusters can bring the shoe adjustment closer to the correct point, but may not get them all the way.

Brand new shoes should drag pretty good when spinning the drum/wheel by hand. It shouldn't be difficult to spin, but you should be able to hear them drag on the drum. After the first drive they'll be broken in pretty much perfectly.

[Dinky26]

Bled the system tonight, I'm thinking there is more than one way skin the ELK, cause I saw one yesterday

 

Brakes are good to go now, I used the recommended Subaru way cris cross ending at the furthest from the MC.

 

 

 

Thanks for all the input it's greatly appreciated as always.

[Dinky26]

Subaru recommends you start the bleed procedure at the front and cross cross. I've always had good luck starting with the brake furthest from the master cylinder and working to the closest.

You could still have air in the system. It's very hard to get all of the air out if the system goes completely dry.

When the seals pop out of the rear wheel cylinders you're better off to just replace them. Did you replace both cylinders as well as the shoes?

Incorrectly adjusted rear shoes can cause a low-pedal condition. After a few dozen pumps of the brakes the self adjusters can bring the shoe adjustment closer to the correct point, but may not get them all the way.

Brand new shoes should drag pretty good when spinning the drum/wheel by hand. It shouldn't be difficult to spin, but you should be able to hear them drag on the drum. After the first drive they'll be broken in pretty much perfectly.

And yes I did replace both cylinder seal kits, that's kinda a PITA. Autozone couldn't even get them, or the person didn't know what they were talking about. Oreilys had a set fortunately, chased them all over town cause the one I talked to didn't do as I asked. .so hard to find good help these days. Darn humans anyway.

[Mikevan10]

I thought Tax was recommending replacement of the rear brake cylinders in their entirty - not just the seals.  Maybe he'll clarify...

 

I have always started bleeding at the cylinder with the longest length of pipe from the master cylinder and worked my way sequentially to the shortest.  Never heard of doing anything else.

[Dinky26]

I thought Tax was recommending replacement of the rear brake cylinders in their entirty - not just the seals.  Maybe he'll clarify...

 

I have always started bleeding at the cylinder with the longest length of pipe from the master cylinder and worked my way sequentially to the shortest.  Never heard of doing anything else.

See that is what I was thinking also, over on the Forester forum they recommend doing it this way that I posted earlier on here. 

 

All I know is that after doing this way I posted earlier, the brakes seem to be working fine now.