forester!

[mr sarcastic]

so, i'm in the market for a used forester.  i'm not new to subarus, i've had more then a few EA's, but this will be my first forester, actually my first EJ.   currently i'm finding them on CL for decently cheap, i'm looking to get into one for less then a couple grand after all is said and done repairs included.   I'm finding a bunch for less then a grand, 98-02.   i'm expecting those to either need head gaskets or rear subframe work, rust fixes, all not a huge deal to me.   i'm also finding a few 03/04's for the same money or not much more.   do these newer generation foresters have the same issues?   i know headgaskets are an issue for pretty much every subaru, but i'm just wondering if its worth holding out for a 03 or newer?   are they less problematic, or is the newer emission's equpment more sensitive.   i personally like the simplicity of the older subarus, i would hate to get into a car that's impossible to keep the CEL off. 

[Fairtax4me]

99-07 are the same setup and same basic SOHC 2.5 engine. Head gaskets are an issue but they just leak slowly externally.

 

98 had the old DOHC 25 which is prone to internal head gasket leaks (pressurizing the cooling system) and rod bearing problems. These can be fixed cheap and easy by dropping in a 2.2 from a legacy 95-98. The EJ22 engines are a dime a dozen and bullet proof.

[MilesFox]

My 98 forester is A 2.2 recipient. The original ej25d had 240,000 mi when it failed the HG. I got this car for 500 bucks because. Book value fro this car is within $1600

[mr sarcastic]

Alright, 03 and up was just a face lift of the 99-02's? Not really a big deal to me, not worth the extra money they're going for.

[Bobaru71]

99-07 are the same setup and same basic SOHC 2.5 engine. Head gaskets are an issue but they just leak slowly externally.

 

98 had the old DOHC 25 which is prone to internal head gasket leaks (pressurizing the cooling system) and rod bearing problems. These can be fixed cheap and easy by dropping in a 2.2 from a legacy 95-98. The EJ22 engines are a dime a dozen and bullet proof.

 

Hello Fairtax,

 

I'm a new member to this forum. I would like to ask if you know where I could get my hands on a relatively low miles (~100k or less) 2.2 or 2.5 to drop into my 99 Forester, locally? I'm over in Waynesboro. My current engine has eaten it's third exhaust valve, even with meticulous maintenance and extensive rework. I think the problem is orginating from lower in the block (oil control rings) so I would rather get a good reman or something similar and drop it in. Otherwise my 99 L is in great shape. Entire vehicle has only 117k on the clock and I love it too much to get rid of. Thanks for your help.

 

Rob

[Stevo F]

I'd try http://www.car-part.com to look up used engines, but you may have have to travel to find a decent one.The closest I saw to you was one with 245K miles in Ruckersville and they want $600 (sounds too high for that many miles).

 

Not sure how many good 2.2's are around locally (I'm in Culpeper).

 

There was a guy in Harrisonburg selling what sounded like a decent one for $400 on Craig's list a few months back but I imagine he sold it by now. You could also look at used 2.5's but most of those are probably being junked because of headgaskets (like all of the Outbacks I see cheap on Craig's list).

[Bobaru71]

I'd try http://www.car-part.com to look up used engines, but you may have have to travel to find a decent one.The closest I saw to you was one with 245K miles in Ruckersville and they want $600 (sounds too high for that many miles).

 

Not sure how many good 2.2's are around locally (I'm in Culpeper).

 

There was a guy in Harrisonburg selling what sounded like a decent one for $400 on Craig's list a few months back but I imagine he sold it by now. You could also look at used 2.5's but most of those are probably being junked because of headgaskets (like all of the Outbacks I see cheap on Craig's list).

 

 

Thanks Steve, I did cursory look at car-part and there were a few engines within the 100k range but after thinking about it I dont want to risk any HG issues frm them. I am contmeplating buying a reman from these guys --> http://ccrengines.com/?redirect=false

 

the full payment includes the core return to them, plus they also consider taking payments for those that cannot afford the full payment up front. Think I will call them tomorrow.

 

Rob

Edited September 14, 2014 by Bobaru71

[Fairtax4me]

Hello Fairtax,

 

I'm a new member to this forum. I would like to ask if you know where I could get my hands on a relatively low miles (~100k or less) 2.2 or 2.5 to drop into my 99 Forester, locally? I'm over in Waynesboro. My current engine has eaten it's third exhaust valve, even with meticulous maintenance and extensive rework. I think the problem is orginating from lower in the block (oil control rings) so I would rather get a good reman or something similar and drop it in. Otherwise my 99 L is in great shape. Entire vehicle has only 117k on the clock and I love it too much to get rid of. Thanks for your help.

 

Rob

That's very odd for one of these to burn 3 exhaust valves at such low mileage. How many miles were on it when the first valve burned? The second?

 

It's probably not due to a bottom end issue, unless this car has been very poorly maintained. Ring problems are not common unless oil changes have been severely neglected.

 

The heads on the early phase 2 engines do occasionally have issues with the valve guides dropping, which causes the valve to hang open and burn. This is a fairly easy diagnosis just by pulling the y-pipe down and looking into the exhaust ports. Unfortunately, fixing it requires rebuilding the head.

 

There's another issue I've heard about more recently that affects pretty much every car on the road. A side effect of ethanol gas. When a car sits for several days or weeks at a time on a regular basis, the ethanol can eventually cause corrosion in the valve guides and cause the valves to stick. The only way to fix that is to rebuild the head.

 

You'll have a hard time finding a used engine with lower miles than what you have. A 2.2 from that era is especially difficult to find since they only used it in the Impreza. And any used engine you get is a gamble. You're likely to have to replace the head gaskets, and most of the other seals on a used engine. You might as well do all that on your own engine since you know the history of what you have.

[Bobaru71]

That's very odd for one of these to burn 3 exhaust valves at such low mileage. How many miles were on it when the first valve burned? The second?

 

It's probably not due to a bottom end issue, unless this car has been very poorly maintained. Ring problems are not common unless oil changes have been severely neglected.

 

The heads on the early phase 2 engines do occasionally have issues with the valve guides dropping, which causes the valve to hang open and burn. This is a fairly easy diagnosis just by pulling the y-pipe down and looking into the exhaust ports. Unfortunately, fixing it requires rebuilding the head.

 

There's another issue I've heard about more recently that affects pretty much every car on the road. A side effect of ethanol gas. When a car sits for several days or weeks at a time on a regular basis, the ethanol can eventually cause corrosion in the valve guides and cause the valves to stick. The only way to fix that is to rebuild the head.

 

You'll have a hard time finding a used engine with lower miles than what you have. A 2.2 from that era is especially difficult to find since they only used it in the Impreza. And any used engine you get is a gamble. You're likely to have to replace the head gaskets, and most of the other seals on a used engine. You might as well do all that on your own engine since you know the history of what you have.

 

Fairtax, the first time it occurred was about 6-8k miles ago and this was about the same time I had the Forester in for it's first HG change, along with idlers, WP, all new gaskets and seals including the metal sep plate. The heads were sent to a machine shop and pressure tested and resurfaced. Prior to this the HG left me stranded one day after work heading home from C'ville and I luckily caught it early as I have an Ultragauge and watch the water temp consistently. By the time I noticed the HG going the temp was appox low to mid 240F. Had it flatbedded from there. While in the shop the owner noticed the exhaust valves were slightly pitted and recommended changing them out for OEM and I agreed. So all new exhaust valves and valve stem seals were installed and the intake valves were cleaned and reseated with new seals as well on both heads. At the machine shop the valve seats were ground. After it was put back together it ran great for about 2-3k and exhaust valve on cyl #3, flashing MIL for #3 misfire...took it back to shop and they cracked it open again and sure enough #3 had severe burn...good sized hole in it. New OEM exhaust valves on 1 & 3, new stem seals as well and pressure tested good by machine shop and new cat conv put in too about that time. Ran good until now 117k on clock and same symptoms, flashing MIL at idle especially and substantially reduced power and air compressor type chugging noise. And this, bear in mind, occurs even with oil changes every 4k with full syn and amsoil oil filter and name brand 93 octane (Exxon or Shell). For awhile I was fighting what I thought was a stuck oil control ring and adding about a quart of oil per week (barely register a reading on the dipstick when read cold).

 

This is where I'm currently at. Right before the exhaust valve went out on me (this past Friday) I was climbing up Afton mountain and right at the very top a good puff of grey smoke billowed out the back and thats when the symptoms started. Forester deadlined until I can drop a reman in it...prob from CCR engines.

 

I strongly suspect the first owner really neglected the oil changes and I was band-aiding it awhile longer and even with all that work got me nowhere in the end.

 

Rob

Edited September 15, 2014 by Bobaru71

[Fairtax4me]

Did it burn the hole out in the middle near the stem or on the edge?

 

Good old Afton mountain. Lots of heat build-up in the engine after that long climb, if you have an old fuel filter or dirty injectors that can cause a lean condition which overheats the exhaust valves.

 

I bought my old 95 wagon cheap because it burned a valve trying to climb the mountain on 33. The valve cracked, and it burned a crater hole out in the middle of it.

[Bobaru71]

Did it burn the hole out in the middle near the stem or on the edge?

 

Good old Afton mountain. Lots of heat build-up in the engine after that long climb, if you have an old fuel filter or dirty injectors that can cause a lean condition which overheats the exhaust valves.

 

I bought my old 95 wagon cheap because it burned a valve trying to climb the mountain on 33. The valve cracked, and it burned a crater hole out in the middle of it.

 

Fairtax, in both cases prior to this one it was on the outer edge --> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-pT1lb8Rw7fg/VBirtH-5zxI/AAAAAAAADGY/QCydCAOuLQA/w898-h508-no/IMAG0677.jpg

 

I'm thinking severe lean burn as well but never had codes related to it. In addition to that I track my SFT and LFT and on descent from top of Afton my LFT was sometimes -27! Suspected a leaky/lazy pressure regulator.

 

Replaced at least two injectors with factory new and had an OEM regulator ready to go in within a day or two prior to the third valve burning.

 

I started the work order with CCR engines and building from new parts. I want to know what condition my engine is in instead of guessing and spending loads of money on it.

[Fairtax4me]

LTFT shouldn't ever be more than +/- 10%. 27% is the maximum amount the Subaru ECU can add or deduct from fuel trim.

 

The ECU should be adding a small amount of fuel on a run like that, or if it does subtract it shouldn't be more than a few percent.

 

You may have a faulty oxygen sensor reading a false rich condition and bringing the fuel trim out of whack. If your fuel trim is approaching the 10% mark normally this is an indicator of an issue.

 

Another factor here is the fuel you use.

Higher octane fuel burns slower. Octane resists combustion, which helps to prevent detonation/pinging. But it also has the effect of delaying the complete burning of the fuel air mixture. That mixture may still be burning as it's being pushed out of the combustion chamber, which will cause overheating of the exhaust valves.

The edge of the valve is cooled by the valve seat when the valve is closed, but the center of the valve has to be cooled by the stem, which doesn't carry heat out of the valve as efficiently as the seat. What happens is the center expands, then the outer edge cools and causes the valve to crack. Exhaust gases then blow out through that crack like a torch and cause a hole to burn out in the center, which then expands towards the edge of the valve.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2014 by Fairtax4me

[Fairtax4me]

Compare that to a valve that burned due to incorrect valve lash clearance causing the valve to hang open. When the valve doesn't seal all the way, the edge can't cool because it doesn't contact the valve seat in the head. This burns away a wide area that doesn't extend deep into the center of the valve.

[Bobaru71]

Thanks for the gouge Fairtax. So you suspect that maybe the use of high octane was inter-related to my situation?

 

For the STFT/LTFT issue I had replaced both up and downstream O2 sensors a couple months prior.

 

B/R

[Fairtax4me]

Thanks for the gouge Fairtax. So you suspect that maybe the use of high octane was inter-related to my situation?

 

For the STFT/LTFT issue I had replaced both up and downstream O2 sensors a couple months prior.

 

B/R

High octane fuel could have certainly been a factor.

 

There must be something else going on as well, because by itself I don't think the fuel would cause this. The fuel trim shouldn't be thrown off that much over the course of 7-8 miles. But you say that's on the way Down the mountain? Which side?

[Bobaru71]

High octane fuel could have certainly been a factor.

 

There must be something else going on as well, because by itself I don't think the fuel would cause this. The fuel trim shouldn't be thrown off that much over the course of 7-8 miles. But you say that's on the way Down the mountain? Which side?

 

Fairtax, heading east towards C'ville. I suspect also that there is substantial oil burning either from the oil control ring(s) or farther down in the block. Once I get the new engine in and send the old one for a core I will ask them to keep in touch to find out what they find when they tear it open.

[Fairtax4me]

I've watched fuel trims going up the east side but never when driving down.

 

How much are they going to charge you for the core?