joe5 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 (edited) Hi everyone, In a recent post, someone brought up the HHO generator... http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/149293-simple-upgrades-to-increase-miles-per-gallon-andor-horsepower/ I'm super curious about this and wanted to start a new thread to reach out for broader input. So...does this actually work? On the internet, I find two contrasting perspectives 1. HHO is awesome and everyone should do it 2. It is a hoax that simply makes the engine run lean, which does give better gas milage but does not conserve power and has nothing to do with generating hydrogen I'm looking for your input! Especially first hand experience if you've done this to your suby. I've got a stock loyale. Better gas milage sounds great but not looking to lose power from an already weak motor... Edited October 6, 2014 by joe5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumoco Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Stoked that you're into this, HHO is super awesome and works super well in our small carbed boxer engines, it has the ability to work very well in FI engines but in order to do this you have to splice in an EFIE sensor that basically tricks your O2 sensor. http://www.hydrogen-first-aid.com/hho_efie.html this website has one of the best write ups i've ever found, their english is a little broken at times but who ever wrote it definitely knows their spoob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I'm curious to see what you find. I've read about this stuff various times over the years. I have a big electronics & science background, and fall more in the 2nd group. Most of the sites I've read about it, turn out to be someone trying to sell stuff, or someone that doesn't really know what they are talking about. For those who are running some variant of this, I'm not questioning that something you have done has made a difference in MPG, but why it's different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djellum Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 seems like solid ideas to me, I've looked into it multiple times and have some scrap stainless around to make one if I ever get the running gear sturdy enough where I have time to do it. Hydrogen cars are fairly well established through the years, as are propane cars so its safe to say that is plenty of evidence that alternate fuels will work. I don't think its as simple as plug and drive, you will have to tune to the new normal since hydrogen and pure oxygen have different characteristics than gas and atmospheric air. the main problem from my research is flow. its hard for the normal small automative size generators to produce enough liters to fully power the car, thats why currently its just used as a bump to the standard gas. I could see where it could cause a lean condition. your adding 2 chemicals to the combustion though, pure O2 and hydrogen, so pre-detonation may be dramatic or non existent. haven't done it myself to see. running lean won't really get better mileage. better mileage is achieved through efficiency and lean isn't much more efficient than rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bratman2 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I am a doubter. I have not seen one picture of a functioning unit on a Subaru yet. Mileage log would really seal the deal too! With smart phones and digital cameras everywhere I think at least one would be posted by now. If it really worked so good I think a major auto company would be on it like a stink on a turd with all the mandated fuel economy increase the government has imposed on them. Sounds too good to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee2 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 You might want to read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djellum Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I think the complication of a 2 fuel source car, and the fact that water is a commodity that is in short supply a lot of places makes it much less attractive to manufacturers. much the same way as Nos or other systems like it are not installed on even the premium sports cars. I don't doubt they could make an amazing machine if they went all out, but considering warranties, repair and maintenance, it just doesn't make much sense for them. they cant control what type of water you use and wouldnt want to deal with someone putting fish tank water in their HHo when they should be using distilled. I don't think its in the corporations best interest to take chances in general. they will move on what they must but you won't see them going to anything like HHO anytime soon. they have plenty of options yet to use to increase their mileage. I don't really think its the absolute best even, just that its worth looking into. it seems very geared towards those of us who are tinkerer's, and who live in a wet area where water is plentiful. I think using water for fuel is a bad idea for us as a race, we need to put the research into making fuel out of substances that human beings don't benefit from or at least don't need to live a life. I happen to be in circumstances that could make use of it, so until something better comes along Im interested. the thing I like most about it, is that it seems like it would have little waste. to combust you need heat, fuel, and oxygen, which is all that HHO produces (except the heat of course). in normal gas combustion that uses atmospheric air theres a large portion of non reactive gasses as well as the small amount of liquid fuel that doesn't burn (which is hopefully not much if your running right). the fact that it produces its own oxygen in a much purer state, and runs completely off of gasses, is what gives me the most hope. We know that mileage and power come from efficiency so a more efficient fuel source has merit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinky26 Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I am a doubter. I have not seen one picture of a functioning unit on a Subaru yet. Mileage log would really seal the deal too! With smart phones and digital cameras everywhere I think at least one would be posted by now. If it really worked so good I think a major auto company would be on it like a stink on a turd with all the mandated fuel economy increase the government has imposed on them. Sounds too good to be true. I seriously doubt that any of the auto makers are going to dive into this even if it could be feasible, not saying it isn't a real possibility though, cause I think it is. The auto makers have to much to loose by eliminating the need for the bio fuels, and they aren't the only ones in this $$$$$$$$ making deal. The capabilities to have vehicles with MPGs of greater than 50 per gallon are far from new age. Our papa government wasn't going to allow that to become a reality 30+ years ago, way to many $$$$$ they would have lost. But hey I know I certainly can not control things that are not inside my circle, much less butting heads with the government. joe5 I appologize for getting off topic here. I too would like to know more about this invention, I think it is a real possibility. dejellum, you make a good point, we shouldn't be using a resource that is very essential to the human race in excess, we waste enough as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibreakstuff Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I think the biggest annoyance would be having to add 2+ cups of distilled/ro water every 1000 miles. And a lean misfire is a good way to pop a piston/ring land. Not to say the technology won't improve in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe5 Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 Stoked that you're into this, HHO is super awesome and works super well in our small carbed boxer engines, it has the ability to work very well in FI engines but in order to do this you have to splice in an EFIE sensor that basically tricks your O2 sensor. http://www.hydrogen-first-aid.com/hho_efie.html this website has one of the best write ups i've ever found, their english is a little broken at times but who ever wrote it definitely knows their spoob I'm still looking forward to seeing pictures of your set up. How much did it cost you to make? Anyone else got first hand experience with it I'd love to see it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe5 Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 Ahh common...somebody's gotta deliver with some first hand experience. Until I see it, I'm finding myself further and further into the "if it sounds to good to be true it probably is" camp... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
that one kid Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I think the main problem I see is that the technology just hasn't developed past a basic level yet. On a chemical level its entirely possible hydrogen has a lot more explosive power than gasoline and requires a lot less to run in a combustion cycle, i actually saw this guy down in California that was running (i think it was an old corolla) on a HHO system but it really didn't seem practical because of how big of an electrolysis chamber was being used and that it took more energy to make the hho fuel than the energy the fuel gave the car. I have seen methods of people trying to solve this problem but dont know enough about the processes to give a suggestion or details..... the links below were at the very least thought provoking i dont know might help you figure somethings out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumoco Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) If you don't believe it, don't believe it, I know it works from my tracked experience but can understand all of your disbelief. The websites above will teach you how to build one, it takes a day, some tinkering and about 50 bucks, I highly recommend that videos build aswell as the website's build. If you haven't tried it though, don't knock it, if you research even a little bit you will find out that it is litterally impossible to not get some kind of added horse power and mpg from this Edited October 15, 2014 by sumoco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 "....On a chemical level its entirely possible hydrogen has a lot more explosive power than gasoline ...." Hydrogen has about half the energy density of gasoline. See top row of page 2 in the link below. http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/fuel_comparison_chart.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 First video. I did not take long until the guys talking about powering an engine with water speaking scientific gobledy gook. The small "cells" that were shown do not come close to generating enough Hydrogen & Oxygen to power a car sized engine. Think about your engine displacement. 1.8 L of air gets pumped through it every 2 revolutions at full power. That is a BIG number of CFM. That is how much uncompressed Hydrogen & Oxygen you would need to supply it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarubrat Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 And that is a key fact the rubes buying these devices are unaware of. Not only do they violate the laws of thermodynamics and in all cases have been proven to draw more power than they create, if they did somehow break the laws of thermodynamics they do not create a sufficient CFM flow to fuel and engine of that size and the AF ratio is all wrong. I am going to have to pull my rocket scientist card on this one and say that this is total BS, your wasting your time and money on a poorly or deliberately misunderstood device. If you claim it works your suffering from placebo or pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 There is also a chance that mixing the output of the device with the conventional consumption of gasoline that it changes the air fuel ratio or some other aspect. That is entirely different than what is in the video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumoco Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) Like I said, build one, put it on your car, and prove me wrong. Until then I will enjoy my 40 mpg with my foot stomped Edited October 15, 2014 by sumoco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumoco Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I would also like to point out that in no way am I saying that I can run a car off of this setup, I use mine as an additive for better fuel economy, hydrogen can power a car, it's been proven time and time again and if you can't accept that then you don't know anything about science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I have not seen one comment stating that using hydrogen as a fuel wouldn't power a car.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarubrat Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Venting a miniscule amount of hydrogen and oxygen that takes more energy to produce than it yields into an intake is NOT the same as a hydrogen IC or fuel cell system and pointing to those as a reference to HHO system viability is junk science. Not one of these systems when subjected to testing has ever produced more energy than they consume which conforms with the laws of thermodynamics. The load on the alternator which consumes energy produced by the engine is greater than the potential energy produced by burning those gasses. People passionately argue first hand experience and success at everything from levitation to invisibility. However, HHOs are in the same junk bin as the 100mpg carburetor, fuel line magnets, and the perpetual motion machine. I get that it can be dramatic to think that the scientific community is too dumb to figure out what some clever youtuber has, or worse, that we are all in some sort of conspiracy to suppress this technology and that your the lone wolf that figured it out. I have quite a bit of first hand experience with fuel cell and SA/BAT EPS systems on orbit, having worked over 20 years on programs to include the STS (shuttle) that utilize these technologies and not once ever has an over unity system been employed as anything but comic relief. Ultimately it isn't going to be my time or money wasted on an HHO rube goldberg contraption stuck under the hood of one of my cars, and it isn't even allot of time or money at stake if someone buys into this, but I hate to see bad science go unchallenged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) Ive looked into it before and it seems like the best way to get any gain would be with a power source that not only ups the initial 12V to 1000V or higher,but also pulses the current to break the water's surface tension easier.Then it would also need a much better cell design. The power source needs to provide as much voltage as possible to reduce the amps because dumping 20+ amps into water just heats the water without really splitting it into its parts.Then it needs to pulse and get gradually stronger until it peaks at say 1000V then do it all over again really quickly.20 amps at 12V is 240 watts of heat,but at 1000V its only .24 watts of heat. Then the cell needs to resemble a minigun-7+ circular tubes arranged in a circle with smaller tubes in them with no more than 1/16" of clearance between the outer wall of one tube and the inner wall of the other tube.A cell designed that way maxes out the surface area so it will produce the most with a given volume so the unit can be physically smaller. Thirdly if the system works by leaning out the engine and letting the hydrogen fill in the power deficiency than in the event of the "generator" not working the car would have to automatically default to stoich gas ratio or communicate that to the driver so the engine wont melt down... Damn,I sound like a professor with all those big words... high voltage pulse wave like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGIhvlesWhg cell design like this Edited October 15, 2014 by Uberoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 .Then it needs to pulse and get gradually stronger until it peaks at say 1000V then do it all over again really quickly.20 amps at 12V is 240 watts of heat,but at 1000V its only .24 watts of heat. You cannot vary the Wattage like that. the watts will be what they are (there is a value that is required to break the bonds) You get there by using high volts/low amps......or lower volts at high amps. you cannot keep a steady .20 amps while varying the volts over thousand+ ........the load stays the same (water) ??? Watts is the required power to do work...........amp/volts combintion is how you get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrgrr Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Like I said, build one, put it on your car, and prove me wrong. Until then I will enjoy my 40 mpg with my foot stompedThere is One guy on here who says it works and is running it, and the rest of the scientists saying 'no way'...Sumoco, could you Please substantiate your claims with a proper write-up including pics, and set the record straight? Just sayin' -who doesn't want 40 mpg? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferox Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Anyone that claims they can debunk this on paper is deluding themselves. There are too many factors involved in mixing these fuels, feed rates, deflagration rates, and variable pressure, temp, and volume, etc. Yes the law of conservation of energy applies to state the obvious, but the system is theoretically intractable and has to be determined experimentally. There's a lot more going on than just an alternator performing electrolysis. Obviously everyone commenting on this hasn't been around long enough to remember the last time this came up. If you say nay, then build Sumoco's set-up and show us how it doesn't work. Otherwise, if Sumoco has added this system to his vehicle and is achieving 40 mpg then he has demostrating experimentally that it does work to increase fuel efficiency on some level and the law of conservation of energy still applies. Just because you don't understand how he did it and how it works, doesn't mean he didn't do it and it doesn't work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now