Help.. Need some direction... 2.2 EJ22

[dellis]

  Hello all:

 

 Been creeping the forums for awhile, Have tried several fixes but with some slight  performance .   First car is a subbie impreza outback sport, 2.2 with air.  This is my daily work driver 100 miles a day interstate driving.  I started when I was going to leave work i just started the car and it stuttered and started to stall. I then shot the pedal to it and it started running better on the drive home it developed a stutter or miss at 1500 and 2500 rpms. When it is running it is fine until it hits the revs listed then it stutters and as it passes the target area it clears and runs better. I went and to it to a local mechanic and he put it on a code reader and it was popping MAF. SO with that being said I started the dreadful sensr change. I changed all the sensors, IAC , crankshaft, camshaft, temp sending and relocated the anti-knock sensor to the back of the block. I also replaced the MAF and it still pops when it gets put on the tester. The Coil pack has been replaced and the ignitor also. New wires and plugs, I also sea foamed the engine so im leaning towards it jumped time or a Vac leak?  I have also changed out the fuel filter and Marvel mystery oil the fuel.  it is sporting 165k and has had a new belt, water pump and thermo  within the last 30k.. doesn't run hot but has a low idle. the comp was cleared and reset but now I am just at a loss of where to go or direction.  Any help would be greatly appreciated...   I aslo checked all the grounds and cleaned them.

 

 

[lmdew]

Are you using Subaru parts?

 

NGK PLUGS & WIRES or Subaru wires

 

What's the cel code?

[heartless]

I am baffled as to why you have thrown all those other parts at the car when it is specifying (more than once from the sounds of it) that the MAF system is the problem?

 

If you replaced the MAF with a used one, it is possible you got a bad one. maybe try another one?

It is also possible that there is a wiring issue for that part - a chafed or broken wire, corroded connector, something that isnt right. It bears further investigation.

[dellis]

CEL is not popping. I get the dreaded 16 flash on the at oil stored code when it gets put on the meter is is showing Mass Air Flow.   And I put a new MAF sensor in place .  I will check the wiring to and from it.  Thank you for a different view. gets old when you talk to yourself going over things...

[Dj7291993]

Check all the air ducting between the MAF and the throttle body.  If you have air coming into the engine that is not being read by the MAF, it can cause issues.  Have you tried disconnecting the MAF, then driving it.  If it runs the same with the MAF unplugged, that's not your issue.  If the MAF is ok, I would start by looking at a spark plug.  Make sure they are in good shape, and make sure it is the right type.  I know in some of the legacys, the 2.2 and the 2.5 took different plugs.

 

Also, why on earth would you throw that many sensors at a car?  Try to at least isolate the system before you start replacing parts.  It will save you a lot of money, and possibly some knuckle skin.

[dellis]

Thanks Falcon, I will check the ducting and seals never thought of that.. I put new plugs in it but assumed that they are all good but anything is worth a shot..   

[dellis]

Well changed out the plugs again and checked all the duct work.. I can hear a whistling noise sounds like in the air cleaner box. I checked it no obstructions unsure what the whistle is. Also attached are the first set of plugs i pulled out of the car that were not the ones subbie calls for.. I replaced them with the NGK plug called for in the owners manual.. Thanks ... Still pulling my hair out..  My father inlaw seems to think its a plugged cat???? thoughts could that be the whistle I am hearing in the airbox?

[dellis]

[lmdew]

Still have not listed the codes.  Any auto parts store will read them for free.

 

Codes 

Clear Codes (disconnect the battery for an hour

Drive, if the CEL comes back on get the code

 

Anything less and you are loading the parts cannon!

[idosubaru]

we need some concrete information:

 

1. what codes or pending codes does an OBDII scanner give?  (Advance Auto, Autozone and many more read them for free)

2. is the Check engine light on?

3. is the AT light still flashing at start up?

4. have you checked the timing marks?

5.  what year EJ22 is this?

[Dj7291993]

Whatever you do, don't throw a cat at it. Get the info these guys are telling you to first. Cats don't go away at higher rpm. The more air trying to flow through the exhaust, the worse they get. If you just can't get it out of your head, there is an easy way to check it. But get the codes first!

[dellis]

Thanks.. I will get it scanned tomorrow.   yes the Cel is on and i still get the 16 flash at oil light for stored code..  I have not check the timing marks ..  I will check that also .. and the engine is a 1997 ej22.

[dellis]

Scanned code showing is P0102.

 

 

[heartless]

From 1997 FSM found here: http://jdmfsm.info/Auto/Japan/Subaru/

 

Legacy Outback > 1997 > Service Manual > DIAGNOSTICS SECTION > ON-BOARD DIAGNOSTICS II SYSTEM > MSA5TCD97L3912.pdf (second to last)

 

DTC P0102
— MASS AIR FLOW SENSOR CIRCUIT LOW INPUT —
DTC DETECTING CONDITION:
      Immediately at fault recognition
TROUBLE SYMPTOM:
      Erroneous idling
     Engine stalls.
      Poor driving performance

 

So, definitely a MAF problem.

do a little digging in that link to find more info on diagnostics and possible solutions to the problem.

[grimaceNMike]

With the engine running spray maf cleaner near the whistling sound, see if the idle changes. Maybe it's an air leak after the maf.

[dellis]

I did spray the MAF sensor, The whistle is a generalized sound sounds like it coming from the airbox? Think it is clogged on the inner side of the inner fender?  I just ran in on torque again and it shows code P0102 _Drivetrain -Mass or Volume Air Flow Circuit Low.  and direction now?   thanks everyone for all the help so far.     I have been pulling my hair out..

[climb1028]

Mind if I ask for concurrent help with a similar problem and same engine? 
Just did 1998 EJ22 swap into my 92 Loyale. Stoked.

Ran it for 1.5 weeks with no problems.

The only thing I did between it running fine and suddenly having problems was wire in the radiator fan #1

It ran fine for 10 minutes, then started stuttering on an uphill climb onto the freeway. Ran well for another 5 minutes. As I exited the fwy and started up a small incline from a stop it started bucking and stuttering really bad. Gas pedal made it worse. Turned engine off and after 10 minutes it started and ran another couple miles. Stuttering began again and then just got worse and worse. Left it overnight and now it is back home but won't start at all.

Here is my troubleshooting so far:

Checked all plug wires - connected.

Checked all engine wiring harness connectors - all connected. 

Checked for all vacuum lines and intake hoses - all connected and tight.

Checked fuse for ECU - good.

Checked fuel pump - it hums for a second when I turn the ignition on, then hums for a second after I stop cranking.  I think it's good. This also shows ECU has some functionality.

Checked all plug wires for spark. #1,3 and 4 all had good, strong regular spark. #2 wire had weak or nonexistent spark. 

Checked timing belt and cam sprocket positions - It appears to be in the same configuration it was in when I got the engine (which ran for a few seconds before I pulled it from the donor car, and ran for 1.5 weeks in my Loyale) This configuration looks odd to me but it worked for a while and I'm no expert so maybe it's actually fine. It's a long description so I'll wait and see if anyone thinks this is a problem b4 describing.

Swapped out the current ignitor for another one I had picked from the junkyard - no change.

Is my weird fan wiring a red herring? Or could that cause a problem somehow? 

I pulled the fuse from the fan circuit early on in the troubleshooting. I just pulled the fan relay and made sure I had everything hooked up right (well, right for my weird way) and that the relay still worked properly. It's a NO relay RC-2219 which I salvaged from the donor car. I believe it was used as a headlamp or rear defrost relay previously.

Thanks in advance.

I had searched the forum and someone with similar symptoms in their EJ22 was told to check the cam position sensor. I will do this as well as check the coil pack and plug wires resistances tomorrow after I track down a working ohmmeter.

I also don't have access to a OBDII tester and the car doesn't run so I'm not sure when/if I'll get a diagnostic test done. I didn't wire up a CEL but I could do that and look for CEL codes I guess...

My main question I guess is can someone conclusively say the odd fan wiring was the problem. I know it's odd but the ECU side of the relay is exactly how it should be done (+12v to one spade and ECU Fan wire to the other) and the only thing different is the switched side is switching the ground from the fan instead of switching +12v to the fan. I don't see how this could cause any problem, especially after examining the relay and seeing that it was in good working order. 

Secondary question = anybody know what's up or what I should check/replace next?

Thanks.

[1 Lucky Texan]

some of the airboxes have difficulty seating the tabs at one end - not sure if that's true for a 97.

[dellis]

I just checked today,  and the seating on the one side is broken where the tabs fit in...  I am going to attempt to find a replacement airbox now...  thanks..

[climb1028]

Tried to troubleshoot the EJ22 today. Got as far as testing the resistance on the Ignition Coil

Chiltons says the resistance between plug wire posts 1 and 2 should be about .6-.8 ohms. Same for between 3 and 4.

It also says the resistance between terminal connectors should be about 20k ohms between 1 and 2 and same for 2 and 3.

Since mine were nowhere near those values (I first went and tested my Ohmmeter against a known brand new resistor, it was fairly accurate), I went to Pick-N-Pull and when I finally found one on a EJ22 I tested it only to find....  same values which are nowhere near what Chiltons prescribes.

So back to square 1 on the testing. Someone mentioned fuel pump in a PM. I will rent a fuel line pressure gauge from O'Reilly's and see. 

If anyone in the Portland, OR area has a OBDII tester I'd love to borrow it.

[dellis]

As you were stating about the scanner, If you run a android phone you can buy for $5.00 bucks a app called TORQUE  http://www.appbrain.com/app/torque-pro-(obd-2-car)/org.prowl.torque  and then go to amazon and buy the bluetooth adapter and scan your car wireless some of the higher end ones which i got had a CD to install the software on your laptop so you can run it there also ..

 

    thats a youtube vid of the same..    hope it helps....

[climb1028]

Yeah, the $5 Torque app and that bluetooth adapter seem like the way to go. I'm impatient and didn't want to wait a couple days for it to arrive from Amazon. I'll order one now because my troubleshooting has been hitting many dead ends.

I was wigged out by the weird looking alignment on the cam pulley marks and crankshaft alignment mark so I removed the fan I just put on, the radiator (gonna save the fluid this time because they are charging $15!! a gallon of Prestone these days and I can't afford to spend $15 bucks everytime I take the radiator off), the accessory belts and changed the timing belt. Didn't take too, too long (maybe 2 hours) but aligned with a new belt on the marks and it still looks weird. IDK... It's like 1/3-1/2 tooth off and the best I can tell it's on correct. I spun the engine a couple times by hand and then cranked it over but it's still not firing up.

SOooooo... I installed the Fuel Pressure Tester I borrowed from O'Reillys and turned the car ON. I hear the fuel pump buzz from the rear of the car but nothing shows up on the Fuel Pressure gauge. I turned it over for a couple seconds and still absolutely nothing on the gauge.

My buddy Pat said to try and put a couple ounces of gasoline in the throttle body, reconnect the air intake hose and try starting. If it fires up for a few seconds then the fuel pump might be the issue. I poured a bit of gas into the throttle body, put the intake hose on and turned it over... no fire.

So the O'Reilly's Fuel Pressure gauge doesn't work??? Or maybe I'm not using it correctly?? Seems pretty straight forward - Put the adapter in line in place of the fuel filter, connected the screw-on gauge hose to the adapter fitting. Hit the pressure bleed button once to make sure it was reset. Turn on car, turn over engine. Read gauge. Am I missing anything?

I was really excited that it might simply be the Fuel Pump but since the gas-in-the-intake didn't produce any coughing or attempts at starting I am more inclined to thing the stupid O'Reilly's gauge doesn't work or I'm not using it right.

I pulled the camshaft position sensor. It gave an Ohm reading across the terminals similar to what Chiltons describes for the 1996 Legacy (mine is 1998, I hope that doesn't mean differently calibrated sensors.) I forget what now that I'm inside from the freezing cold - 4k Ohms if I remember correctly...

I pulled the connector off the TPS and tested Ohms between terminals 2 and 3 with the throttle in fully closed and fully opened positions. It says it's supposed to be 12k Ohms and 5k Ohms, respectively, in the 1996 Legacy Chiltons. I got 4200 Ohms closed and 750 Ohms fully open. So it sort of works but it is off by almost an order of magnitude. Anyone know if the Chilton's is correct? I searched this forum for like an hour last night trying to find the resistance values for the ignition coil and never found what I'm looking for. The SubaruEJ22 ServiceManual.pdf that I keep finding online is for a 1992 Legacy and I don't think is helping me with correct values for my 1998.

Dudes, everything sucks, nothing works - I can't even tell if the instruments I'm using to test or the numbers I'm supposed to be finding when I test are accurate! This seems to be going nowhere. I was supposed to MOVE TO CALIFORNIA 2 weeks ago and this car has been screwing me over and sucking the last of my savings for the past 2 weeks.

[1 Lucky Texan]

probably a stupid question but, was the timing belt set using the crank sprocket  arrow/triangle on the front, or the dash/line on the tab in the back?

 

also, are any of the tabs broken-off the back of the crank sprocket?

[climb1028]

Thanks, that's not a stupid question considering I'm no mechanic and probably very capable of doing stupid stuff. But yeah, I used the little tic/indent marks on the front lip of the pulley where somebody had previously put a spot of paint. These are about 15-20° after the arrows.

I don't have any tabs at the back of my pulley. The mark on the driver's side (left?) pulley is in the trough between teeth. The mark on the pass pulley is aligned with a tooth. The mark on the crank is super obvious but it's hard to see with my A/C compressor and hood latch in the way.

I was suspect of these weird indent positions until I removed the old belt and the faint white lines printed on the belt in fact aligned on a belt trough and tooth respectively.

Then when I got the new belt the marks were slightly offset (not exactly over a tooth and trough) and the middle mark at the crank was a mumble-jumble of arrows and dashes that also didn't really align with the trough...

Then after all that confusion with the belt on and the tensioner released the best I can get it is to perfectly align the driver's cam pulley mark, note that the crank mark *appears* to be aligned from my obtuse viewing angle, and yet the passenger side pulley is off about 1/3 the distance between the teeth. It's on the 1/3 side of things closest to being aligned correctly. And I believe this is the same weird way it looked when I got the engine and ran it for 1.5 weeks with no problem.

My mechanic buddy Pat suggested frozen or broken fuel lines. The engine trouble did exactly coincoincide with our first bout of freezing weather. Maybe after leaving my Loyale sitting around for almost 2 months before putting the EJ in it accumulated some water in the lines/tank?

I'm going to get some Heet or similar water remover and put a heater under the front of the car.

I'm still getting 0 psi on the fuel pressure tester. I sure would be happy if this was just a simple frozen/broken lines issue. (This is where it really pays to ask those 'stupid' questions!)

[climb1028]

Ok. The saga continues...

Suddenly started running after Timing belt was put in. Thought maybe I had nailed it.

Warmed it up. All good. 
Drove to the gas station. 1.5 blocks from home it suddenly is bucking and studdering. No power. Dies when I hit gas...

Tow it home and stare at it for 3 days. (Actually just chased down a bunch of wild leads that I saw from previous posts on this forum. Never could actually find good information on my engine 1998 2.2 - resistance values for Ingition Coil, sensors, etc...)

Suddenly it's running again. I drive it around the neighborhood. Then around town. Then go to take it to Hood River (about 60 miles). I need to drive this car to Santa Barbara (about 800 miles) in a few days (was supposed to leave Nov 1 but car has not been running right/reliable enough...) A short test trip is in order. It ends up overheating about 2 miles from home and I spend the next 3 hours in 40 mph gorge winds (around 20 degrees out) stopping it everytime it overheats, letting the pressure in the cooling system drop, open the radiator and top off what had blown out the reservoir cap. After about the 8th time this night it started running well and ran well all the way to Hood River (about 45 miles).

Ran for the next morning in Hood River. Then decide to take it to Maryhill (about 40 miles from Hood River) and suddenly it's doing it's overheat routine again...

Limp it back to Hood River and it does the studdering and die trick. DOA on Oak Street in Hood River. Went to the bar to get drunk.

Next morning - it fires right up, runs well, no problems. Drives all the way back to Portland and only overheats when I pulled hard on the freeway for a mile and then started up an uphill offramp.

Happy to see my ODBII bluetooth adapter showed up in the mail. Got that set up and it ran a laundry list of codes: The main one being my #1 O2 sensor. It had not been plugged back in the last time I put things back together. Cleared all the codes, warmed it up and went for a test drive. Going down the freeway at 60-65 for about 6 minutes with no problem then suddenly the Torque App shows the cooling temp spike. Heater quits blowing hot air. It quickly hits 251 degrees on Torque. (Good thing it's the 2.2??!!) I pulled over and did the usual routine to cool and top-off.

Drove it slowly on side streets back home and it stayed at normal operating temp.

I'm going with Water Pump. I'm an idiot for not just replacing the water pump when I did the timing belt. I deserve these next 3 hours which will be me doing the timing belt all over again and putting in a new water pump... and new radiator cap.

As soon as this thing runs well and doesn't overheat when pulling hard I'm driving to Santa Barbara. Thoughts? 

Pat says the O2 sensor not being plugged in can cause the bucking/dying.