dilts Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 So I appreciate any feedback. I have a 2004 Suby Outback 3.0. It is a great car but i started to have issues with it. Now keep in mind that the issues started when I changed the fuel filter because it was really dirty. Before that the car started right up. Here are the issues. Cold Start: Hard time starting ( takes 3 or 4 tries when it is warm out and takes 5-6 tries when it is cold) Warm Start: So when I turn the car off and come back to it within a few minutes, sometimes it will start right away and other times it takes a few tries. Stalls when sitting idle (usually after about 15 minutes idle) After stalling if I don't restart the car it has a hard time trying to stay running while driving for about 5 minutes and when I come to a complete stop and press the gas is will stall. I just did a couple things so far but there are so many possibilities and I would like some suggestions on what to do next. Changed the fuel pump Changed the spark plugs Let me know if you have any suggestions. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 is the check engine light on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dilts Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 Yes the Check Engine light is on. It is throwing out 11 codes, some were misfires so that's why I thought spark plugs. The others are generic codes that don't really tell me what is going on and since there are so many parts to the fuel system that it could be it is making it difficult for me to figure out what is causing it. I thought about trying to change the O2 sensor next but it could also be the Map Sensor, the PCM and the Fuel pressure regulator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 post the codes, someone may spot something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) yes, post all the codes you are getting then clear the codes and see which, if any, come back and post those up. Edited October 28, 2014 by heartless 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dilts Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 Sorry it took so long to respond. It went from 11 codes to 4 codes after I changed the spark plugs and the 4 codes indicated that there was a leak in the intake manifold. So I looked at that and sure enough the seals were bad and half of the hoses. So I tore it all apart and put new seals and hoses on. I started it back up and then received more codes within the first 30 minutes. The codes are p0302, p0304 and p0306. When I looked these up basically it said either an intake manifold leak, spark plugs or coils. Now I fixed 2 out of the 3, and hopefully it is not the coils because they were the most expensive. I cleared the codes hoping it was just because I had everything apart and now I am waiting. Any suggestions in the event that the codes come back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 swap the coils with the other bank. that should tell you if any are bad if the codes change to the other side. what was the source of the fuel pump you installed? a used one could possibly still have a bad cap/o-ring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 those are all cylinder misfire codes, the key symptom (if this information is accurate) is all three of those are on the same side of the engine. *** Check for oil in the spark plug tubes. if the spark plug tube seals are leaking they'll compromise the ignition on that side. with the rigorous symptoms of starting and running you're having it sounds bad. 1. i would wonder if the timing chain tensioner is failing and artificially changing the timing of all the valves on that side. *are there any timing chain noises on start up, idle, or high RPMS? * how many miles?* is the engine otherwise meticulous and well kept or more of an unknown? the chain tensioners require oil supply, so if oil is compromised then tensioners could be affected. 2. fueling on-one-side issues are rare but not impossible - it would see you need to look into the fuel pressure regulator system and see if that can affect one side only. 3. i had one multiple cylinder misfire on an H6 a few years ago all on the same side. ended up needing multikple COP's for some reason. you could swap sides - put the three on the passengers side on the drivers and drivers on the passengers side - if the cylinder misfires "move" with the COP's then you know it's them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dilts Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 The fuel pump is a used one so that is a possibility with the O ring. The filter is new and came with a new cap, but didn't have a new O ring with it (we changed that first, the old one was pretty dirty), I wonder if I can buy that separate. Swapping the sides for the coil is a great idea. I won't have time to try that until this weekend. The car has 169k miles on it and we bought it off of someone else used. We take care of the regular maintenance on it, the engine is pretty clean. I don't hear any noises from the timing chain. These codes were not previous codes. They only came up after everything was back together after putting in the new seals. There is a wining noise that I noticed this morning upon acceleration on my way in to work. Also it didn't have any issues starting up since we changed the seals but we just finished that last night and I only drove it to work this morning. Usually it will have trouble on cold days and this morning it was 50 degrees. While everything was apart I did clean everything. I also noticed that when I turn the heater on it drops in RPMs almost to the point of stalling and then picks up again. Thanks for your help guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) people seem to use 2 different numbers but, I used a Viton (I think 75 durometer?) 928 metric o-ring. I lubed it with a film of engine oil. One of the tabs has a dimple meant, I think, to be a stop so, don't turn the cap too far, it might put pressure on that tab if the dimple rides over the lug. if you didn't want to pull the pump again, maybe a fuel pressure test would work. Edited November 11, 2014 by 1 Lucky Texan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 These codes were not previous codes. They only came up after everything was back together after putting in the new seals. There is a wining noise that I noticed this morning ! Let's back up: 1. How many miles/years have you owned this car? 2. are you saying the old fuel filter was dirty? *** How do you know ***? This is rather ominous because Subaru fuel filters "never" have issues and can last 200,000+ miles. I'm not saying I recommend it, just that fuel filter issues are rare. If you actually had a terribly dirty fuel filter - then I'd wonder if you have a rusty fuel tank that's clogging things up or if severe amounts of debris got into the fuel lines and compromised the FPR (Fuel Pressure Regulator) or Injectors. I highly doubt that's the case - because Subaru's don't inherently have that issue - but your odd comment about a dirty filter is the staple catalyst here - so please describe exactly what you mean by "dirty filter" and how you know for certain it was dirty. 3. Why was the filter replaced? Often times people replace a fuel filter as a diagnosis......is that the case here? A key component to this is that if this problem started after some other work - meaning - it has ZERO issues - and then HAD issues. then you can be sure something went awry with the work that was done to it. *it's related to the fuel filter being replaced? this is an in-tank filter then or the under hood filter? (Subaru changed right around 03 or 04 from an under hood to an intank filter) * are you positive the lines are properly hooked up and not clogged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dilts Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) The fuel filter was dirty meaning when we pulled out the fuel pump (in tank fuel filter) and looked at it, you could see physically that it needed replaced. So we replaced that along with the air filter (more for regular maintenance). It has 169000 miles on it and I have only had it for a couple of years. The lines are properly hooked up as well and they are not clogged. Pulling the pump is easy since subaru made an access point from inside the car. It takes about two minutes to pull it and put the new oring in. I guess that is my next step. I hope someone local has it. Edited November 11, 2014 by dilts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 my 03 has a filter under the hood. maybe if the in-tank sock had debris on it, the underhood filter also needs changing? It's near the left strut tower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dilts Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 I looked and I didn't see a second fuel filter. I will check again though after work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 '04 has the filter in the tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 ah, probably doesn't have the o-ring issue then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 The fuel filter was dirty meaning when we pulled out the fuel pump (in tank fuel filter) and looked at it, you could see physically that it needed replaced.. if that's the case i would wonder if your tank is internally rusted or compromised with debris? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dilts Posted November 13, 2014 Author Share Posted November 13, 2014 (edited) Fuel tank isn't rusted, it's not the O ring and I am getting different codes now. P0174 and P0171. Fuel filter is clean, I just replaced the Intake gasket and worn hoses so that can't be the issue with an intake leak. I really don't want to change the O2 sensors and find out that isn't the issue since they are pretty pricey for this model. Any other suggestions? I am running out of ideas and I need to get it inspected at the end of the month. It also stalled out again twice this morning and I had a hard time keeping it running. The rpms were real low and when I pressed the gas they would go down before they went up. It stalled out when I got below 5 MPH. I would take it to a dealer to have it diagnosed but they are just going to do the same things that I am doing except charge more $..... Is it time to move on to greener pastures (a new car)? I really wanted to get 250k out of the car. Edited November 13, 2014 by dilts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 (edited) you have a big vacuum leak most likely. start with confirming any/all hoses were re-connected after the plugs and other work you did. try a vacuum gauge to confirm, or maybe try spraying some carb cleaner or even a small stream of gas from a propane torch around the hoses and intake mani to locate the leak. Edited November 13, 2014 by 1 Lucky Texan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 +1 vacuum leak - spray carb cleaner all around the engine bay - takes less than 20 seconds - and it'll reveal itself real quick O2 sensor wont fix this except by shear luck, that would probably result in no difference at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dilts Posted November 17, 2014 Author Share Posted November 17, 2014 I have a smoke machine that I have created and can use it tonight to see if there is a vacuum leak. I will update tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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