Dinky26 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I've had this issue only on occasion. One time on our way back from CO with a Forester for my niece, had been running it all day no problems, got in after eating dinner at Freddy's, and NOTHING, radio came on, lights and ect, but nothing to the starter at all. Jumped it and we were off and running again. Ran it all the next week no problem every day for 7 days then on Sunday again, back to nothing under the hood. Started to think it was a Sunday thing, then no problem this last Sunday, been doing fine all week so far. So, I've had the battery checked and it's fine. Earlier this summer it did this, found a loose connection to the battery from the starter, tightened that up, thought I'd cured the issue up till a couple of weeks ago. Any ideas what to look at the next this hits me? I don't leave home with out my jumpers that is for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee2 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) Could be the starter itself. Solenoid contacts wear out. When it doesn't start, do you get a clicking sound when you turn the key ? Easily replaced and inexpensive. Jumping will boost the power to the starter and sometimes compensate for poor solenoid contacts. Could also be a weak battery, how old is it? Could also be the ignition or park/neutral switch. When it doesn't start, if automatic, put in neutral and if it still doesn't start then it might be the ignition switch. If it does start then it is likely the park neutral switch. Edited October 30, 2014 by Dee2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Ignition switch failing. Can't pass enough amps across the contacts anymore. When you raise the cranking voltage slightly (from 11.x to 13.x+ ) by connecting to a running car (jumpstart) the amp draw is lower.......so the switch works. Common solution is to add a pushbutton, or a relay, or both......I prefer a Pushbutton that drives a relay myself. But first step is the relay......the switch may work fine to trigger a relay for quite a while so no button needed added to dash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Ignition switch failing. Can't pass enough amps across the contacts anymore. When you raise the cranking voltage slightly (from 11.x to 13.x+ ) by connecting to a running car (jumpstart) the amp draw is lower.......so the switch works. Common solution is to add a pushbutton, or a relay, or both......I prefer a Pushbutton that drives a relay myself. But first step is the relay......the switch may work fine to trigger a relay for quite a while so no button needed added to dash. Man o man.You still have this completely BACKWARDS. When you raise the voltage,more amps flow thru the circuit,NOT LESS! That is why it works. (more current = stronger magnetic field in the solenoid and more positive connection of the contacts) OHMs Law my friend. V=IR or I=V/R If the voltage increases the current MUST increase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdweninger Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 If you hear the click - click at the starter solenoid, then your ignition switch is working. So it is either not enough juice from the battery (low batt or bad cable or connection) or worn starter contacts. I have replaced contacts in several starters... that fixed the problem every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 If you hear the click - click at the starter solenoid, then your ignition switch is working. So it is either not enough juice from the battery (low batt or bad cable or connection) or worn starter contacts. I have replaced contacts in several starters... that fixed the problem every time. This is not correct either. I`ve replaced contacts only to have the problem remain. The solenoid has 2 sets of windings.Pull in and hold. Both are energized intially. Once the solenoid pulls in (the click) the stronger pull in winding is deenergized. If not enough current is available because of high resistance in the ignition switch(or elsewhere) the weaker hold in winding is unable to hold the contacts closed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinky26 Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 When it doesn't start I get nothing, except radio, fan, lights all work. The schoomos at Car Quest said the battery was good. It's a manual so it's not the park neutral switch. I think the battery is 3 years old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee2 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 When it doesn't start I get nothing, except radio, fan, lights all work. The schoomos at Car Quest said the battery was good. It's a manual so it's not the park neutral switch. I think the battery is 3 years old. Probably then the ignition switch. Usually not that expensive for a manual tranny vehicle. Or you could go the relay route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opus Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Sounds like a bad ground to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bratman2 Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Ignition switch was my problem a couple of years ago. Got progressively worse. Total of maybe twenty times. Finally one day I heard an ever so faint click inside the steering column. The switch is two pieces. The contact side with the wiring harness is what I replaced and it has never happened again. I forgot were I got it from but make sure it has the proper pink (I believe) connecter. Most places sell the wrong ignition part for an EA81. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bratman2 Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 I believe this is the one I bought. Not going to say this is your problem but it was mine. Worked fine most of the time then nothing others. Usually at the worse times too! http://www.redlinemotive.com/store/replacement/quote.asp?year=1984&product=M5050-55335&category=M&application=000249099 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinky26 Posted November 1, 2014 Author Share Posted November 1, 2014 I believe this is the one I bought. Not going to say this is your problem but it was mine. Worked fine most of the time then nothing others. Usually at the worse times too!http://www.redlinemotive.com/store/replacement/quote.asp?year=1984&product=M5050-55335&category=M&application=000249099 I'm thinking you're probably right that is the case, I've actually an extra one of these I'll just switch out, since I bought a whole colum off of a member here, I forget who it was without looking, but the keyed part worked better than my old one. Many thanks for all the input everybody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Put an ohmmeter accross the starter contacts of your used ignition switch before going thru all the trouble of swapping it. Plug it into the harness and try it before doing the full install too. Check the starter solenoid contacts and plunger as well. I did not mean to suggest that they may not be a problem,only that they are not a 100% sure-fire fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Man o man.You still have this completely BACKWARDS. When you raise the voltage,more amps flow thru the circuit,NOT LESS! That is why it works. (more current = stronger magnetic field in the solenoid and more positive connection of the contacts) OHMs Law my friend. V=IR or I=V/R If the voltage increases the current MUST increase. volts x Amps = watts Wattage of starter stays the same...nothin in it changes. volts go up---amps go down You are so wrong man..... that's why an electric motor or a kiln or any device that pulls 10 amps at 110v will only pull 5 amps at 220v. Also why if you have weak wiring in your house with lots of volt drop.......you are more likely to blow out light bulbs because the volts go down.....but the amps pulled go up......cooks the bulb trying to run at low voltage. besides.....I have been doing this for 20+ years specifically with subarus.......I have installed more relays in subarus that posts in this thread. I know EXCACTLY what happens to them and why......Do you???? Go look at the tag on an electric motor and you will see...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/watt-volt-amp-calculator.htm Go to this table..... Plug in the 5000 for watts, and then 12v, 13v, and 14v......you must reset each time between to get it to work right.... But when you do you get this 5000 watts @ 12v= ~416 amps 5000 watts @ 13v= ~384 amps 5000 watts @ 14v= ~357 amps. Additionally.....From Wikipedia page about ohms laws in describing the resistance of the circuit. "where I is the current through the conductor in units of amperes, V is the potential difference measured across the conductor in units of volts, and R is the resistance of the conductor in units of ohms. More specifically, Ohm's law states that the R in this relation is constant, independent of the current." So if you were going to say somehow the Resistance (or wattage requirement) was variable.......it's not. Okay? For any given load the more Volts you give it, the less Amps required (drawn by circuit) Now.....if you up the voltage supply......it is true that more amps will be available for use......but any given load will still only pull what it needs....(unless otherwise restricted by capacitor or other method) You can also think of it like water in a pipe. the load (watts) is like a bucket that needs filled instantly the amps, is like the volume of the the pipe .....bigger pipe, bigger volume......more amps the Volts, is like pressure of the water...... So, if the pressure is high......the size of the pipe can be smaller to carry the same amount of water to fill bucket If the pressure is lower......the volume of the pipe (amps) must be more to supply the same amount in the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Wattage does not stay constant in a simple DC circuit like a solenoid with changing voltage. Dual voltage motors are wired differently for each voltage. Single-phase motors often have dual-voltage ratings of 115 volts and 230 volts. To obtain these ratings the running winding consists of two sections. Each section of the winding is rated at 115 volts. One section of the running winding is generally marked T and T and the other section is marked T and T If the motor is to be operated on 230 volts, the two 115-volt windings are connected in series across the 230-volt line. If the motor is to be operated on 115 volts, then the two 115-volt windings are connected in parallel across the 115-volt line. Do you think you can ignore Ohms Law? This is basic high school(elementry school?) stuff. Jeesh! I do not know how you work on electrical stuff with such a basic misunderstanding. Stay away from my car! Personal ignorance is excusable.Spreading ignorance is NOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 For any given load the more Volts you give it, the less Amps required (drawn by circuit) Now.....if you up the voltage supply......it is true that more amps will be available for use......but any given load will still only pull what it needs....(unless otherwise restricted by capacitor or other method) This is just plain WRONG. It is a trivial matter to prove it with a couple of meters and a variable power supply. Why are you afraid to try it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 (edited) I`ll try to make it simple for you. From Ohms Law I=V/R so ANY 1 ohm resistor with 1 volt applied will have a current of 1 amp passing thru it. Double the voltage to 2 volts and 2 amps now pass thru the resistor. In the first instance the resistor dissapates 1 watt. In the second instance the resistor dissapates 4 watts. Edited November 1, 2014 by naru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Light bulbs sometimes have a shorter life when operated at lower than rated voltage because thier filaments take longer to heat up to thier designed temperature/resistance values. The R in Ohms law is lower resulting in a larger current than designed for a longer time despite the lower voltage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Wattage does not stay constant in a simple DC circuit like a solenoid with changing voltage. Dual voltage motors are wired differently for each voltage. Single-phase motors often have dual-voltage ratings of 115 volts and 230 volts. To obtain these ratings the running winding consists of two sections. Each section of the winding is rated at 115 volts. One section of the running winding is generally marked T and T and the other section is marked T and T If the motor is to be operated on 230 volts, the two 115-volt windings are connected in series across the 230-volt line. If the motor is to be operated on 115 volts, then the two 115-volt windings are connected in parallel across the 115-volt line. Do you think you can ignore Ohms Law? This is basic high school(elementry school?) stuff. Jeesh! I do not know how you work on electrical stuff with such a basic misunderstanding. Stay away from my car! Personal ignorance is excusable.Spreading ignorance is NOT. I am not arguing with you anymore. You wrong. Once again. http://www.rapidtabl...-calculator.htm Anyone reading this thread.....do the math. make your own conclusions. Naru once again you are confused. You are confusing the AVAILABLE amperage or max capacity of a circuit............With the actual amperage of the current being consumed by a given load. Watts consumed by a given load is constant. Watts = Volts x Amps.......so If Volts go up.....the amps drawn by the load go down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 That is it.Run away and hide. Instead of making yourself look dumber with every post by blathering on a bunch of nonsense why don`t you get your meters out and give it a try? I have 100s of times. Are you that afraid of proving yourself wrong? How much current do YOU think flows thru a 1 ohm resistor with 1 volt applied? With 2 volts applied? By your twisted constant wattage logic,a 1 watt load with 0.000000000000001 volts applied would have a current of 1,000,000,000,000,000 amps flowing thru it. I would think the self evident fallacy of this statement would be apparent even to you. You need to work on your reading comprehension and logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 From YOUR link: Amps calculations The current I in amps (A) is equal to the voltage V in volts (V) divided by the resistance R in ohms (Ω): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinky26 Posted November 2, 2014 Author Share Posted November 2, 2014 This subject really never computed for me, always had to find a conversion calculator to do it for me, other than the couple of times I managed to do it in school. Except it didn't stick with me. Thanks for the input on this one. Now I just need to make time to switch it out, between doing the HGs on the Forester and maintaining the Tribeca too, needs rear brakes and sway bar bushings changed. . . .oh and then there is the Forester for my niece that through the p0420 code, for like 3 different possibilities.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 By your twisted constant wattage logic,a 1 watt load with 0.000000000000001 volts applied would have a current of 1,000,000,000,000,000 amps flowing thru it. That would be the required Amps to operate the full 1 watt load at .00000000000001 volts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 That would be the required Amps to operate the full 1 watt load at .00000000000001 volts. You sure are stubborn. The whole point is that the wattage drawn is NOT constant. Maybe you will believe the calculator that YOU provided in YOUR link. Enter 1 ohm and 1 volt and you get 1 amp and 1 watt Enter 1 ohm and 2 volts and you get 2 amps and 4 watts The amperage goes UP with increasing voltage not down. The wattage used does NOT stay the same with varying voltages. Get it yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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