EA81T w/ EA82 5 speed difficult to shift

[carfreak85]

Hey folks, I'm trying to get some ideas to help diagnose my shifting woes.

About ten years ago I swapped in an EA82 D/R 5 speed into my EA81T wagon using EA82 clutch parts and EA81 pedal parts. It shifted decently, but shifting into reverse was usually a little grindey if you were too quick. The clutch cable clevis and clevis pin were SEVERLY worn, and I thought that replacing these parts could help alleviate my shifting troubles.

Fast forward to August 2014. I've refurbished the wagon to use in my wedding and have installed the following parts:

Lightened EA82 flywheel (with shims for the bolts), XT6 clutch kit, a NOS EA81 MT pedal bracket, NOS clutch pedal & clevis pin, NOS EA81 clutch cable.

Unfortunately, the shifting/clutching has become even worse. I have almost ALL the free play adjusted out of the clutch system (I left maybe 1-2mm for thermal expansion) and yet, I can barely get the shifter into gear. If the car is at a dead stop, I have to shut off the engine before shifting into first gear or reverse, or heel-toe into first coming up to a stop sign (Accompanied by a bang and judder as the shifter is forced into gear).

 

I'm worried that my lightened flywheel may now be too thin, or my clutch release fork might be bent/damaged.

Does anyone have any ideas to help fix this?

 

[Gloyale]

Clutch fork???

 

I have also seen one of the PP hold down bolts snap off.....letting the PP flex up on that one side rather than pulling off the mating face.

[Twitch de la Brat]

Sounds like clutch fork.

Bracket is new, correct?

Had the same problem after eating 3 cables on my BRAT, turned out to be a bent pedal bracket.

Sounds like your clutch fork has had it, because it sounds like a "too little movement" issue.

I'd also check the flexibility of your clutch cable mount points, see if they're flexing at all.

 

Twitch

[carfreak85]

Sounds like clutch fork.

Bracket is new, correct?

Had the same problem after eating 3 cables on my BRAT, turned out to be a bent pedal bracket.

Sounds like your clutch fork has had it, because it sounds like a "too little movement" issue.

I'd also check the flexibility of your clutch cable mount points, see if they're flexing at all.

 

Twitch

 

Brand-new-from-SOA pedal bracket, bushings, clutch pedal, clevis pin and clutch cable.

[jono]

whoa - went down similar path in January. An EA82 clutch needs about 25mm pull at fork end of cable. An EA81 clutch pedal only gives 15, 16mm

 

I fixed it by fitting an EA82 clutch pedal on the pedal box, also employed an EA82 clutch cable - modded the pedal box to take it - cut off the EA81 cable mount, made up a 10mm thick spacer on the side of the pedal box, watch the working angles got my 25mm cable pull- all sorted.

 

Betting XT6 clutch also needs 25mm pull .....

 

you are (and I was) essentially trying to declutch an EA82 clutch with EA81 stuff. We both got away with it the first time, second time with some knowledge and measuring. My engine came out six times before it twigged

Edited November 3, 2014 by jono

[carfreak85]

whoa - went down similar path in January. An EA82 clutch needs about 25mm pull at fork end of cable. An EA81 clutch pedal only gives 15, 16mm

 

I fixed it by fitting an EA82 clutch pedal on the pedal box, also employed an EA82 clutch cable - modded the pedal box to take it - cut off the EA81 cable mount, made up a 10mm thick spacer on the side of the pedal box, watch the working angles got my 25mm cable pull- all sorted.

 

Betting XT6 clutch also needs 25mm pull .....

 

you are (and I was) essentially trying to declutch an EA82 clutch with EA81 stuff. We both got away with it the first time, second time with some knowledge and measuring. My engine came out six times before it twigged

 

Interesting...  Seems straight forward enough.  Where did you get this clutch stroke data?  Not that I don't believe you, I just want to double check for my own piece of mind.

 

From what you are saying, it sounds like the EA82 part is taller above the clutch pivot point vs. the EA81 pedal.  Does the EA82 clutch pedal just slide onto the EA81 pedal shaft?

 

Are there any modifications (Welding, cutting, etc.), or is this a bolt-in affair?

[jono]

the pedal stroke data is in the factory manuals in either clutch or general service section for EA82. The shorter stroke I measured with EA81 pedal and a tape measure taped to a secure point on engine, end of tape measure zip tied to clutch cable end at fork.

 

Embarassingly also dummied up an EA82 pedal beside an EA81 pedal on a pivot on the benchvice and despite seeing EA82 pedal has a longer lever distance from pivot to cable pull hole, did not see a difference of anything like the 10mm advantage when activated on bench - so gave up on the idea for a while.

 

Pedal is no problem to swap. The pedal box really needs to come out so you can cut grind remove the EA81 cable bracket, then work slowly to see where the EA82 cable will fit and work. Next time I would use a larger 10mm spacer between pedal box wall and EA82 cable mounting point - I used ally plate.

 

Really should play with it to see the angle of cable through its operation to ensure it is happy and not awkward in its operation, least weird angle on inside of cable outer when most load on it at full pedal depression.

 

Some have just used an EA82 pedal box, which likely requires you to slip off the EA82 acc pedal, refit EA81 acc pedal for its shape and acc cable pull.

The two bolts that bolt up to the steering column - their holes do not line up, so believe others have extended the plate by welding or extra bolts and extension bracket. It may be next way I go.

 

I tried making an extended pivot ball in bellhousing, measuring all sorts of things, wasted much time and all my spare pivots !!

[carfreak85]

Could you just use the EA81 clutch cable?  If all you need is a longer stroke and the cable already reaches both points, why go through all the trouble of modifying the pedal box?

[skishop69]

I'm going to agree with Gloyale on a bent clutch fork. You also could have a cracked pedal box allowing flex. Seen it on other cars before. If I understand what you did, you simply did the 5spd DR swap in your EA81. Since this has been done by many other members with no clutch cable, pedal or fork mods and no reported issues, I don't see there being a length issue, though I did note in my post on the swap that the EA82 pedal does have a longer throw. Still, I just made a cable adjustment and it's been driving fine.

[jono]

yes, could be the case. My experience is from rhd perspective following what others siuggested a decade ago in order to do 5MT  behind EA81 using 200mm clutch 4WD. My difficulties came about when I changed the engine to EA82 and with its 225mm fly and clutch.

 

My first modded set up was always trying to crunch if I did not completely depress clutch pedal so was always on that borderline of failure for 240,000km

 

OP has also made some changes with clutch and flywheeel.

 

Measure the stroke anyway, see if you have 15 16mm then see if XT6 clutch requires same as EA82 24,25mm.

 

If you change to EA82 or XT6 clutch pedal to get longer stroke, original clutch cable may not line up etc ??

 

I am curious as to where the meat came out of the flywheel

Edited November 5, 2014 by jono

[Hsoj]

Im having the same prob with my ej'ed 87' Brat but not with my 82' wagon, both have 5 speed d/rs. My wagon I had to reinforce the clutch petal by welding on a piece of modded1/8"flat bar. Im about to pull the clutch in the brat cuz I think it delaminated or shattered or the springs broke, It never did shift right. I had to always slam the petal to the floor to get it to shift, making sure it was buried in the carpet.

[wagonist]

if the ea82 clutch is requiring a longer throw, but the EA81 isn't doing that, couldn't you just move the cable position on the fork down lower?

Shorter throw on a shorter distance from the pivot will give the same movement.

 

I know this is easier said than done

but modding the clutch fork sounds heaps easier than modding the pedal box.

[Hsoj]

Ok. I just pulled mine and I'd show the pics if I could get it to load. Basically, on the clutch disc, one of the springs tore loose. ( It does make it hard to shift with a spring bouncing free in there..lol.)  The shop is going to check spec and resurface the flywheel and I'll know by morning if the xt6 spec was on or off.  Remember, this is on an ej'ed vehicle.

[carfreak85]

I'm going to agree with Gloyale on a bent clutch fork. You also could have a cracked pedal box allowing flex. Seen it on other cars before. If I understand what you did, you simply did the 5spd DR swap in your EA81. Since this has been done by many other members with no clutch cable, pedal or fork mods and no reported issues, I don't see there being a length issue, though I did note in my post on the swap that the EA82 pedal does have a longer throw. Still, I just made a cable adjustment and it's been driving fine.

 

It is a brand new pedal box, so I'm near 100% sure there aren't any cracks.  I will look at the release fork this weekend and compare it to another one I have in a spare transmission.  Yes this is a simple 5 speed swap into an EA81 chassis.

 

yes, could be the case. My experience is from rhd perspective following what others siuggested a decade ago in order to do 5MT  behind EA81 using 200mm clutch 4WD. My difficulties came about when I changed the engine to EA82 and with its 225mm fly and clutch.

 

My first modded set up was always trying to crunch if I did not completely depress clutch pedal so was always on that borderline of failure for 240,000km

 

OP has also made some changes with clutch and flywheeel.

 

Measure the stroke anyway, see if you have 15 16mm then see if XT6 clutch requires same as EA82 24,25mm.

 

If you change to EA82 or XT6 clutch pedal to get longer stroke, original clutch cable may not line up etc ??

 

I am curious as to where the meat came out of the flywheel

 

The material removed came from the back side of the flywheels, starting on the outside diameter.  I lost all my old pictures, so none of the flywheel outside the car.  Not sure how many times it has been resurfaced, but that might be something to look at as well.

 

if the ea82 clutch is requiring a longer throw, but the EA81 isn't doing that, couldn't you just move the cable position on the fork down lower?

Shorter throw on a shorter distance from the pivot will give the same movement.

 

I know this is easier said than done

but modding the clutch fork sounds heaps easier than modding the pedal box.

 

It sounds like I could just place the EA82 clutch pedal on the EA81 pedal box to achieve an increase in stroke.  That is the cheapest and easiest option I think, besides verifying the release fork is straight. 

 

Great ideas folks, keep them coming!

Edited November 7, 2014 by carfreak85

[carfreak85]

Does anyone in the greater Seattle area have an uninstalled EA82 clutch pedal I could compare to my uninstalled EA81 clutch pedal?  I can't download an EA82 FSM that shows the clutch throw and I want to verify the extra length before I go and order a new one.

[jono]

I can verify that RHD EA81 pedal has a shorter lever than RHD EA82. Had the two out side by side, on the same pedal pivot shaft mounted in a vice, both with cables, trying to prove the longer lever (top side) had a greater/;onger final throw, could not see it happen, due to pedal stopper devices missing. Take it from me - there is about a 1/4" difference in the top lever length and the cable pull hole is further away from pedal pivot centre,

[Hsoj]

So here is my question, if the flywheel is ground down too deep from being resurfaced and the pressure plate is bolted to the out side of the flywheel, would the release fingers stick out farther?  So, that would give you the need for even more throw in order to shift, correct?

[carfreak85]

That had crossed my mind, but I don't know what the service limits are for the EA82 flywheel.  Does anyone have the EA82 FSM and care to chime in?

[carfreak85]

Does this belong to anyone in this thread?  Again, I'm wondering why you can't just use the EA82 clutch pedal with the EA81 clutch cable.  I wish the pictures showed more of the differences between the two pedals.

[jono]

the writer refers to his Brumby, so may be RHD stuff, which could be different to LHD components, might not help you.

 

I have recalled though that I use the brake pedal safety pivot system on clutch pedals both EA81 and EA82 to assist in ease of pull apart and reassemble - no flimsy super springy clip to fly off to the never never. Still pull pedal box out to ease swap job.

 

I think as the EA82 pedal has the longer lever, it will no longer allow an EA81 cable to line up through its pedal box mount, won't allow cable to exit firewall at correct angle to work nice outside on clutch fork...

 

I did some eyeballing of EA81 flywheel compared to EA82 flywheel, lay both of them crank side on smooth surface and could see the need for the 4mm spacer to be used between starter motor and bellhousing. You may need to examine your set up to get some idea. Bolt both old and new in back of engine to measure the ring gear and pressure plate mounting in relation to engines bellhousing.

 

If a fly is machined, two decks need to be done to retain factory steps, otherwise just letting clutch pressure plate slack off.

Edited November 12, 2014 by jono

[carfreak85]

Turns out that, unlike the EA81 clutch pedal, there are no more EA82 clutch pedals in SOA's parts system.  Does anyone have a servicable one they are willing to part with?

[Hsoj]

That's 

Phizinza's

 build thread.   http://offroadingsubarus.com/83sedan_4wd.html

[carfreak85]

I finally got my hands on and EA82 clutch pedal and I don't think it is going to work well as a direct swap.  The differences in geometry are just too great.

 

I'm thinking about welding the extended EA82 cable-side arm to the EA81 pedal.

[Hsoj]

Hmm, could you cut and weld on a piece of flat bar, then cut the back of the pedal off so you can depress it further? It would be better than moving the firewall forward..lol.

 

Somewhere I have an ej pedal.....It might be a gas pedal though....

Edited November 23, 2014 by Hsoj

[carfreak85]

In case anyone is doing research on this topic in the future, here is how I fixed the problem.

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/152674-ea82-pedal-box-into-ea81/?do=findComment&comment=1278581

 

From this thread:

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/152674-ea82-pedal-box-into-ea81/