"spy" pics of new 05 outbacks! and i got to drive it!

[Adam N.D.J.]

Not all subaru's come with On-star......am I correct in saying that?

I'd question the actual capabilities of On-star and what it actually "can" & "can't" do.

Do ANY Subaru's come with onstar? I've spent a bit of time down at the dealership, and in newers Soobs, but can't remember ever seeing an onstar button. However when I was working at a GM dealership, everything had it.

 

As far as the whole drive by wire, wireless control of the vehicle. Yes, it will happen. It's called OBDIII, On board Diagnostic system III. This will use a satellite antenna much like the onstar one, but will connect your vehicle to your dealership. Whot this does is allow your tech to monitor your vehicle if you have a problem and call in requesting assistance. In some ways this is very good, like the old problem of your car has a problem but when you bring it into the shop and the tech test drives it, he can't get it to duplicate the problem. Here you can call him up when it's doing it, and he can monitor the vehicle for problems. Thats pretty good. Not to mention you can get smog tests while you cruising down the freeway, software upgrades from your garage, ect.

On the down side, you know for the first year or so untill they get everything set up perfect, there are going to be a bunch of kids running around with laptops stealing cars with the push of a couple buttons. Or if you fail smog they shut your vehicle down and then tow it off to the shop.

So just like everything in the world, there are good sides and bad sides. If'n you don't like the new stuff, then just stick with the old.

[blitz]

Not all subaru's come with On-star......am I correct in saying that?

 

I'd question the actual capabilities of On-star and what it actually "can" & "can't" do.

 

777, first the high-end cars get the high-tech ECU-controls plus the satellite linkup, then the lower and mid-priced cars get it. The capabilities are limited only by the imagination. Here's some scenarios:

 

Via real-time satellite linkup and unique individual ID#, every vehicle location, speed, and heading will be known. The number of vehicle occupants will be known via seat sensors, as will the seatbelt-use status of each occupant. Anti-lock brake activation will be logged with a date, time, and location stamp. Cornering G-forces will be continously monitored with a capability for flagging any driving behaviour which results in a lateral G greater than that perscribed by "law" (not unlike a speed limit). A lot of this stuff will be of interest to insurance companies.

 

Then there's the original issue I brought up which involves essentially "forfeiture" law. As it is now, we have those creepy, cocky, well-funded towing services that operate as the long arm of the law. In a nutshell: cross a certain threshold and your car gets impounded or booted. It's a hell of an effective way to twist a person's arm into complicity with any B.S. jurisdictional whim whether constitutional or not. Once the capability for "electronic impounding" finds it's way into vehicles it's gonna be open season on the indentured servants (you and I).

[GotSubaru?]

I think onstar is available on the H6 Outbacks and thats it...not 100% but remember seeing it in one of the brochures somewhere.

 

 

 

Kevin

[tacode]

hmmm...along the same lines as "Minority Report"...

 

"We pulled you over, sir, because you will be attempt a donut in that parking lot in the near future and we're here to prevent it...now, step out of the vehicle and place your license in the shredder....Do it now, your car doesn't lie..."

[Philbiker]

OnStar for 2004 was only available on the top-of-the-line VDC Outbacks (and maybe the LL Bean Edition?).

[Legacy777]

I'll keep my old cars if it ever comes to that.....or figure out a way to disable it.....I like my privacy.

[Martinjmpr]

Blitz:

 

 

The technology you're talking about can easily be disabled by lining the inside of your car with aluminum foil.

 

If I buy an '05, can I borrow some from you, or do you need it all for hats?

[bigbill25]

One disappointing thing for me was no navigation system. Call me a tech-geek, but I want my next car to have a navigation system. If Subaru wants to compete with the high-end cars, why leave that out? Almost all the high-end cars have GPS navigation systems, even the Mini Cooper. :-\

According to the Edmunds review [ http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/subaru/legacy/100396955/roadtestarticle.html?articleId=101838 ], the navigation system will be avalible in 2006. I was put-off by this as well. They offer it in Sweeden and Japan now. Why not here? And, where is the XM radio? The OEM dash unit looks nice, but it does not have a standard DIN hole for a radio, so aftermarket solutions will be messy at best...

 

--Bill

[blitz]

Blitz:

 

 

The technology you're talking about can easily be disabled by lining the inside of your car with aluminum foil.

 

If I buy an '05, can I borrow some from you, or do you need it all for hats?

 

So the "tinfoil hat" response is so old it's new again? You've boxed me into a corner Martinjmpr.

[blitz]

I'll keep my old cars if it ever comes to that.....or figure out a way to disable it.....I like my privacy.

 

As you can tell, I'm not keen on it myself.

 

Here's a collection of .pdf's showing how intense the interest in automotive data-logging/ monitoring is and how vigorously the technology is being persued:

 

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/edr-site/dataformat.html

 

I make that leap of logic to safely predict that it's only a matter of time before our vehicles will be transmitting real-time driving performance data via satellite uplink. Exactly how this data gets used is obviously the concern.

 

I did a little net snooping this morning to dig into the current state of the art, and found a fairly conscise article:

 

http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_30802/printArticle.html

 

Here's a cut & paste of the essential points in the article:

 

Convicted by your car? - it's more than just a possibility, with one such case having already occurred in the US. There, a driver involved in a double fatality claimed he had been travelling at about 100km/h. However, the electronic record logged by his vehicle's airbag showed that his speed just five seconds before impact was, in fact, 184km/h!

So what data is logged and why is it recorded? Do all airbag-equipped cars have this facility? How can you read it? And who owns the information?

 

The implications - not only for drivers but also for insurance companies, the police, car rental companies and fleet owners - are profound. But if the thought of your car logging your driving behaviour horrifies you, here's a let-off - at least for the time being. At this stage, General Motors in the US appears to be the only car company that's wholeheartedly embracing the technology.

 

In fact, GM is publicly releasing details on their systems and also working with a third party provider to make available a dedicated data reader for general purchase.

 

The potential benefits of Event Data Logging (EDL) has also resulted in strong US Government support for adopting universal standards for such systems. In other words, due to the influence of US legislation on car makers, it's probably only a matter of time before all cars have Event Data Logging recorded in a standard format that can be easily read.

 

Two different systems are used by GM; one stores data on the near deployment event which had the greatest change in road speed, while the other stores the most recent near deployment event. In both cases, the following data is recorded:

 

Driver's Seat Belt: this is recorded as buckled or unbuckled. However, this may be recorded incorrectly if power to the unit is lost during the crash.

 

SIR Warning Lamp: the on/off status of the Supplemental Inflatable Restraint warning lamp is recorded.

 

Change in Forward Velocity: this is determined by integrating the average of four 312ms acceleration samples and is recorded in RAM every 10ms. Depending on the module, either 300ms or 150ms of this data is available.

 

Time To Deployment: the time in milliseconds between the start of the event (ie, enabling of the algorithm which requires two consecutive acceleration samples of over 2g) and the command for the airbag deployment.

Time Between Events - the time in seconds between a deployment event and a near deployment event, if that time is less than five seconds.

 

Vehicle Speed: the pre-crash speed, recorded every second for five seconds prior to any event. This information is derived from the vehicle speed sensor.

 

Engine RPM: engine speed, as derived from the engine management system. As with vehicle speed, it is recorded every second for five seconds prior to any event.

 

Throttle Opening: the percentage that the throttle is open, where 100% is wide open. This information is sent by the engine management system along with engine and vehicle speeds and is again recorded every second for 5s prior to any event.

 

Brake Status: brakes on/off, as derived from the ABS or engine management unit every second for 5s prior to any event. Braking intensity is not recorded.

 

Data Validity: a check that none of the four pre-crash parameters (vehicle speed, engine rpm, throttle opening or brake status) is out of range or has logged faults.

 

Potential Benefits of Event Data Recorders

 

(1). Real Time Assistance: the use of EDR data in conjunction with Automatic Collision Notification systems would aid in quickly locating crashes and despatching emergency personnel with better crash information in advance.

 

(2). Law Enforcement: obtaining impartial EDR data from a collision would help in more accurately determining the facts surrounding the incident.

 

(3). Government Initiatives: the collection of EDR data would enable governments to introduce effective initiatives to help reduce fatalities, injuries and property loss.

 

(4). Vehicle Design: EDRs allow manufacturers to collect accurate data to monitor system performance and improve vehicle design.

 

(5). Highway Design: the use of EDR data can assist in assessing highway roadside safety and managing road systems.

 

(6). Insurance/Legal: Additional objective data provided by EDRs advance quicker and fairer resolution of insurance and liability issues

 

(7). Research: EDR data could provide objective data for researching driver behaviour and performance, as well as other research related topics.

 

(8) Owners/Drivers: EDRs can help fleet owners and drivers monitor vehicle and driver performance, to ensure the safe and efficient movement of people and cargo.

[Legacy777]

****.....looks like I'll be keeping my old cars for a LONG time...haha.

 

This technology is sort of like black boxes in airplanes......however the big difference is real time data that technically anyone can access vs. a black box you get the data pertaining to an incident....only if there is an incident.

 

ehh....guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

[Kostamojen]

http://community.webshots.com/album/144542676FpLRKI

 

I test drove an 05 today as well Saw a few other things about the 05's that are interesting too...

[crazyeric]

what exactly is "drive by wire"

[BlueSoob]

I'm a little curious as to this drive by wire thing too

 

I went and bothered a nearby dealership and drove both a legacy and outback.. i know, kinda redundant but he insisted. Personally, I didn't feel any differnet in it than I did my forester. The 2005 is much nicer looking in person than in pictures. It finally doesn't look like its trying to be a bigger car than it is. (I did not see OnStar in any of the 2005s they had on the lot- but that isn't to say that they aren't putting it in) Not sure I would go out and spend money on a car that I don't feel that excited about. Sure the seats were more comfortable than mine but is it worth spending 25000$ on it?

(ps. The upholstery is much nicer in the Legacys In my opinion)

[calebz]

Drive by wire is a setup that uses a potentiometer and servo system in place of an accelerator cable.. As you step on the gas, the pot attached to the pedal moves and sends a signal to the ECU that in turn, combined with a number of other factors sends a specific voltage to the fuel injectors and a servo at the throttle body.

 

Thats the most basic level of a drive by wire system.

 

My 91 Saab 9000T was drive by wire, but it also had a throttle cable as a back up.. If there were problems with certain systems (ABS, EFI and others), the drive by wire would disengage and you would go back to cable control. but ti was designed to only allow use of about 1/3 of the power when using cable control.. not a bad idea I guess on a car whose top speed stock was just under 150mph.. I guess they figured if the ABS or other such systems crapped out, limiting available power would be a good thing.

[Chip]

777, first the high-end cars get the high-tech ECU-controls plus the satellite linkup, then the lower and mid-priced cars get it. The capabilities are limited only by the imagination. Here's some scenarios:

 

Via real-time satellite linkup and unique individual ID#, every vehicle location, speed, and heading will be known. The number of vehicle occupants will be known via seat sensors, as will the seatbelt-use status of each occupant. Anti-lock brake activation will be logged with a date, time, and location stamp. Cornering G-forces will be continously monitored with a capability for flagging any driving behaviour which results in a lateral G greater than that perscribed by "law" (not unlike a speed limit). A lot of this stuff will be of interest to insurance companies.

 

Then there's the original issue I brought up which involves essentially "forfeiture" law. As it is now, we have those creepy, cocky, well-funded towing services that operate as the long arm of the law. In a nutshell: cross a certain threshold and your car gets impounded or booted. It's a hell of an effective way to twist a person's arm into complicity with any B.S. jurisdictional whim whether constitutional or not. Once the capability for "electronic impounding" finds it's way into vehicles it's gonna be open season on the indentured servants (you and I).

That's probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this board.

 

I'm sure your extreme paranoia could be treated with medication...please seek help.

[Dr. RX]

I think I'll wait until the Outback Turbo comes out.

[blitz]

That's probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this board.

 

I'm sure your extreme paranoia could be treated with medication...please seek help.

 

Wow! So what sorta drugs you think would help me? Seems like you got some experience.

[rcoaster]

I think I'll wait until the Outback Turbo comes out.

 

Uh.. It's ALREADY out. It's the Outback 2.5XT. The XT is the turbo version with a 250 hp engine, and 250 lbs of torque.

[Martinjmpr]

I've seen two photos on Edmunds, one has a scoop and the other doesn't. I'm assuming the scoop is on the turbo version?

 

Also read something interesting in C&D, that somehow Subaru got the Outback Wagon classified as a truck for emissions standards and/or CAFE purposes. Something about ground clearance and approach/departure angles. In any case, I'm glad they changed the "door stop/Wedge" look of the 2000-2004 models. When it's time to trade in my '99 (probably in 2006), I'll be glad to get one of the new ones.

[frag]

About black box recording of speed 5 secs before impact.

Was used here recently in a case where a young driver (twenties) killerd two people in a 50 kilometers zone. He said he was driving at 60-70 but the box showed his speed was 180 kmh just before the impact with the other car.

His lawer pleaded that was invasion of privacy. The court ruled that driving a car on a public road is not a private thing. The guy was sentenced to a few years.

As long as it's used that way, I'm all for it.

[Turbone]

Well, Martin posted what I was going to mention. The 05 OBW is going to be liscensed as a truck. This way they can increase the ground clearance, etc. So tabs and stuff will be costing more, which is not good right now due to the increase in fuel prices

[blitz]

About black box recording of speed 5 secs before impact.

SNIP

 

Frag, I don't think more than half of 1% of Americans know that GM has included the 5-sec. continous loop in the cars they've been selling since 1999, they've pretty much kept quiet about it. It's not one of those features they use to try to sell cars with.

 

Also there's a whole 'nother plethora of data that the dealer can read out of the ECU upon return of a lease car. I'm not sure of the specifics on that tho. Basically it's stuff like a record of overheat events, # of times bounced off the rev limiter, backup odometers, etc. It's essentially a document of "severe" useage.

 

Car rental Agencies like Avis, Hertz, etc, have a GPS going with real-time data-logging. They know if your beating on the car.

[blitz]

I'd like a little input from the asswipes that gave me (what they thought was) clever derision on my advance announcement of this technology:

 

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&e=2&u=/ap/20040902/ap_on_hi_te/black_box_driving

 

Don't hold back on my part. Also I'm still waiting for that sage advice on the best drugs to take for the advancement of clear thinking.

 

As further technology (mentioned in my various posts) comes to fruition, this thread is gonna faithfully appear and reappear as necessary to firmly plant a size ten workboot up the rump roast of all who issued snide remarks.

[SubaSkeet]

this is all extremely good info, but...

 

unless the cops of today get a governmental technology grant to bump them up to the futuristic ways of the police in minority report ©, i sincerely doubt that they will be able to afford the technology it would take to take over someone else's car. even tho its probably true that they have the tech now, it takes like 100 yrs just to get a new item okayed for the whole force to use. anyone remember how the whole taser grant thing worked? right, it didnt. same with this f-b-w tech stopper schlamille they're sposed to have. as soon as they come out with something to stop it, the opposing force will come out with something to block it. ie: scrambler of all outside sources of remote waves. the possibilities are innumerable.

 

this thread, despite being quite venomous, has brought black boxes to the table. the info provided by blitz is plentifully truthful, and anyone that is against the fact that it is already installed in many of today's cars, and yes, even the cheap ones, is obviously not reading the replies correctly, as well as the newspapers. it is now an option for parents of the children who drive the cars to get an info device to track the car and its speed (+etc.) via the black box already installed. this works on all cars '96 and younger. and good news:rolleyes: ! even if your car doesnt have one on there, you can always get one installed! yay! this black box/recording box/whatever-you-wanna-call-it deal could quite possibly become the newest required safety feature on cars everywhere, and have the same laws as seat belts do now. it could even be a political topic in the future.