99 Forester with 2.5 and 200k. Can it be reliable?

[avg_joe]

I have a 99 Forester with the 2.5, 5 speed.  It's got almost 200 thousand miles on the odometer.  I've only had it for a few thousand miles.  In that time I have had some issues.  It developed a slight miss which progressed into a dead miss from a cracked valve.  (my diagnosis from subsequently wandering around here, and looking at pics....valve looks like a blow torch took out a pie shape piece)

 

I brought it to my mechanic to figure out, and he figured it was junk....

I talked with him about it for a bit, and we decided to investigate further.  His initial diagnosis was based on taking the plugs out, and finding one that looked nice, and one that was black, and cruddy.  Obviously grossly oil contaminated.  

We did a compression check on those 2 holes...One seemed acceptable, and the other didn't move the needle.  Now we figure head, and decide to tear into it.

 

Mechanic calls back in a couple of days....back to the junk prognosis.

It seems that the oil contamination was from a possible broken ring, or other piston problem, and thus raising the cost into the prohibitive range.(He's been my mechanic for years, and knows how I hate to spend money...I only bring him the stuff I don't wanna do, or don't have equipment to do.)

 

Mechanic calls back in a couple of days....maybe not junk after all.

Mechanic was talking to some other dude, who told him that it was indeed fixable, and not too terribly expensive.

The block gets sent to a neighboring town, where they(whoever 'they' are) proceed to replace a piston.

The block gets sent back, and my mechanic puts it back in the car, and I drive away....

I'm unsure at this point who installed the head gasket....'they' or my mechanic...a mute point, anyway.

 

All goes well for a couple months, I drive it regularly back and forth to town, about 7 miles away.  It does great, I even took it on a couple of longer trips to the in-laws, about 60 miles away.  I figure all is good, as I have continued to monitor the vitals, and everything seems right.

 

I tried to take it on a 300 or so mile round trip, and experienced overheating out of nowhere.  The first time it got hot, I don't know how long it was hot before I noticed the gauge, but there wasn't a warning light, or the 'service engine' light.  I let it cool, poured some water in, and filled the reservoir, which had popped the lid open, and blew water all over the engine compartment.(which is what alerted me to the situation...I saw steam, and smelled coolant).  

I aborted that trip, and made it home.  Watching the gauge closely, and stopping whenever it started to get hot.

 

I thought it was thermostat(wishful thinking), and replaced it.  I drove the car for several days, in varying conditions, and it seemed fixed.

 

Tried my 300 mile trip again.....same thing.  Now it's obviously a head gasket.

 

Is it worth putting any more effort into this engine?

 

I will be doing this one myself, as my mechanic isn't a Suby guy, and has told me so.  So I guess it's up to me.

I love the vehicle....It's everything I need it to be......well... except running, of course.

Is putting a 2.2 into it an option?  Or maybe a 2.2 frankenmotor?

 

This is supposed to be my winter vehicle, and we just got our first big snow.  I really want my Suby back on the road.  It's soooo much nicer to drive around than my F-150 in 4x4.

Thanks for any input.

 

avg_joe

[Fairtax4me]

Two things that you first want to make sure of.

 

1 make sure it has a Subaru OE or OE style thermostat. Many of the aftermarket stats are much smaller and do not react properly which causes overheating. This can be especially true in colder weather, which seems bass ackwards, but it happens because of the design of the cooling system. There was a thread here just the other day with comparison pics of an OE vs an aftermarket stat, that should help with identification.

 

2 make sure the coolant level is full. The Forester doesn't generally have issues with air pockets in the system but it doesn't take much of a pocket to cause the coolant to stop flowing.

 

One other things is to make sure the radiator cap is new and has the proper pressure rating.

 

 

A blown head gasket is possible, but make sure everything else is up to snuff before tearing back into it. Once all that is covered, check for any bubbles in the overflow tank when the engine is warm and running, such as just after a short drive. Bubbles mean head gasket.

[MilesFox]

my forester failed its 2.5 at 240,000 mi. I swapped a frankenmotor which lasted 5000 mi before detonation and excessive oil consumption did it in. 

 

So i did swap a 2.2 from a 1995 into it plug and play. The donor engine has 250,000 mi

 

IT is worth sourccing a 2.2 engine. You will want 1995 or at least 1995 heads and intake to make it work plug and play with the EGR

[idosubaru]

They probably didn't resurface the heads and may have used aftermarket headgaskets...both of those are a bad idea for this particular engine.

 

So it might be worth saving, resurface the heads, and Install Subaru Turbo MLS headgaskets or Six Star and it's only $100 - $200 job so it's worth doing if you have the time.

 

Find GD's thread on here about resurfacing the heads yourself, it's really easy.

 

The 1999 Forester is a Phase II EJ25 and not as easily swapped to EJ22.  The Ej22 swap Miles mentioned above is not possible with a 99 forester (yes for a 98 forester or 99 legacy/outback but not a 99 forester).

It's not impossible but not the easy swap miles is talking about.

 

While the timing stuff is off - get a Gates kit off amazon with new pulleys and tensioner they'r eonly $120.  Or do it later if the head job goes well, the timing belt is actually really easy if you can do a headgasket.

[idosubaru]

and as mentioned - make sure it's not something simple.

 

Subaru also requires Subaru Coolant Conditioner be added tot hat engine - it's $2.50 a bottle from Subaru.

[987687]

That won't work on a 99 forester, will it? Those have a single cam 2.5 engine and a few different things from the phase1 cars. 

 

my forester failed its 2.5 at 240,000 mi. I swapped a frankenmotor which lasted 5000 mi before detonation and excessive oil consumption did it in. 

 

So i did swap a 2.2 from a 1995 into it plug and play. The donor engine has 250,000 mi

 

IT is worth sourccing a 2.2 engine. You will want 1995 or at least 1995 heads and intake to make it work plug and play with the EGR

[avg_joe]

It's head gasket for sure.  Bubbles galore.  Also, with the thermostat removed, it still pressurized the coolant system with enough pressure to pop the cap of the overflow open.

 

I was unaware that these things needed special 'snake oil' in the water.  I suppose I will have to order that online.  There isn't a Suby dealer anywhere near me.  I guess I will have to order the official Subaru thermostat, too.  When I took the thermostat out on my fateful voyage home, I must have left it at the shop that I stopped at.

 

I'm still trying to get all the crap in my garage shoved over to one side, so that I can get the car in without having to leave the sidecar rig outside in the winter....But I can't bury it too deep, cuz I might need to drive it, if my truck dies!

 

I will look at getting the timing stuff, too.  I think that it has been done recently...but not by me.  I've done belts on my Goldwings, so it probably isn't too different.  Looks like I'm gonna have to get a manual for this thing.....Anybody got any favorites? 

[upnorthguy]

Go here and download the factory service manual (FSM).  There are some good youtube videos on how to do timing belt replacement.

[Rooster2]

There may be some u-tube videos out there that show how repairs are made.........worth taking a look see.

[Rooster2]

With 200K miles on the engine, a previous head gasket rebuild, and a recent over heat or two, if it were me, I think I would opt to install another engine. In 99, you have the 2.5 phase 2, single overhead cam, which I think started production in your 99 Forester, and continued well into the 2000-2004+ line of Subarus. Others need to confirm this, but I think a 2.2 phase 2 in the late 20's and early 2000 models will also transplant.

 

It looks like you don't live that far from "The Cities," so you may find a yard around there to buy a good used motor. Searching on Carparts.com for a motor could work for you as well. If you find one, prolly best to pick up the motor, as having it shipped to you could be pricey

 

Let us know how you come out. All here are to help you...........Regards,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Rooster2

[Fairtax4me]

That is a way blown head gasket if its putting enough pressure in to push coolant out of the radiator.

 

I'd at least pull the engine and check the block and heads for warpage. If you find something like severe cylinder wall wear, or guttering of the block surface under the fire ring of the head gasket, then you might consider a new (used) engine. Otherwise, have the heads machined, or try the Post Apocalyptic Machine Shop head machining technique (there's a thread titled that floating around here) and pop some new head gaskets on it.

[idosubaru]

+1 if it's pressurizing that bad I'd be leary about putting much into that block either.  It's either due to severe overheating or a very poor head gasket job or headgasket quality (do you know what brand is currently in it?)

 

Consider a used engine:

www.car-part.com

 

99 Forester or Impreza RS

00+ Forester, Impreza, Legacy, Outback

99-2001 EJ22 can also work if you get an EJ22 exhaust manifold - it's plug and play, very easy.

[avg_joe]

I had a shop do all the work, so I don't know what they used.  They are a good shop, but don't know Subies, so I'm sure it didn't get done with the tips and tricks that are well known here.

The first overheat may have been pretty severe, as I didn't know that I had to look at the temp gauge every time I looked down at the dash.  Subsequent overheats were shut down quickly.

 

My main issue with putting a different engine in, is the feeling that this one still owes me!!  I almost doubled the purchase price with the piston replace job, and just hate the idea of throwing good expensive parts away.

 

I don't have the car inside yet, so I haven't even started investigating.  I think I've got the space figured out, though.  If I shove and stack all the woodworking stuff over to the wall as far as possible, over by the 85 gallon water tank for the fish in their winter abode(in summer, they live in the front yard),  put 2 bikes on the lift, and the other 2 bikes as close as possible to the lift, I should be able to roll the sidecar rig off to the side far enough to get the car in....

This would be much easier if one of you would like to buy a 1977 Goldwing................

[avg_joe]

Go here and download the factory service manual (FSM).  There are some good youtube videos on how to do timing belt replacement.

 

I tried to find the service manual at the above link, but the only thing there for a 1999 is written in Swahili, or something.

I did go on youtube, and watched some videos that were pretty good.

 

I stopped in to my mechanics, yesterday, and asked him a couple of questions....He put in the cheapest head gasket he could get, and was unaware that the water conditioner needed to be added...  So that is looking like the reason for all my troubles(at this point).

 

I have the car in the garage, now.  And I am beginning to remove the extraneous stuff in preparation of the cherry picker that I hope to pick up today....and I guess I go to all the auto parts stores in town, to try and find a manual.

 

Now, if I could get my garage temp up above 40 degrees....

[TKFlight]

I stopped in to my mechanics, yesterday, and asked him a couple of

questions....He put in the cheapest head gasket he could get, and was

unaware that the water conditioner needed to be added...  So that is

looking like the reason for all my troubles(at this point).

 

Yes, the cheap head gaskets are the reason. Six star or the turbo MLS gaskets are highly recommended around here. Both gaskets are multi-layer steel. I've said this before, mechanics just do not know subaru's as they may know other cars which is why its good to check on subaru forums first.

[idosubaru]

.He put in the cheapest head gasket he could get,...

 

that's the problem.

[Rooster2]

I tried to find the service manual at the above link, but the only thing there for a 1999 is written in Swahili, or something.

I did go on youtube, and watched some videos that were pretty good.

 

I stopped in to my mechanics, yesterday, and asked him a couple of questions....He put in the cheapest head gasket he could get, and was unaware that the water conditioner needed to be added...  So that is looking like the reason for all my troubles(at this point).

 

I have the car in the garage, now.  And I am beginning to remove the extraneous stuff in preparation of the cherry picker that I hope to pick up today....and I guess I go to all the auto parts stores in town, to try and find a manual.

 

Now, if I could get my garage temp up above 40 degrees....

For what it is worth, I had a Subie tech working moon light several years back replace the head gaskets on my 99 OBW. He did a great job. He was able to replace the head gaskets without removing the engine from the car. I think he loosened motor mounts, then using a floor jack, he tipped up the motor for better access on each side to replace the HGs. Had to disconnect the exhaust system I think.

[avg_joe]

I have heard that they can be done in the car.  But for me, not having ever done it before, I think I want it out there in the wide open spaces, so I can see what I'm doing.  

 

I went back to that site linked in a previous post, and did find a service manual.....as a web page.  That's gonna make for a lot of trips up and down the stairs, from the computer room to the garage.  Maybe I can convert it to a pdf or something.  

I would like it printed, as I can only sit in front of the computer for so long, before I have to get up and DO something.

 

I have gotten much of the extraneous stuff unbolted, unhooked, and what-not....Hopefully I will be ready when the cherry picker shows up tomorrow.

 

It should be interesting.

Thanks for all the input, so far.

[Fairtax4me]

When pulling these engines the engine and trans are often stuck together by the dowel pins in the bell-housing. They rust and can literally weld themselves to the aluminum bellhousing.

It may take some prying to get the engine and trans apart. Start with a flathead screwdriver, tap that into the seam between the engine and trans and work your way up fom there to a large pry bar.

 

Have a new clutch slave cylinder on hand. Many times when the slave cylinder is removed from the trans the seals inside it are damaged, and it starts to leak and cause clutch disengagement issues.

[avg_joe]

Hmmmmm.  Now, that second part has me doing some thinking.  The engine has been out of this car 2 times in recent history, and the second time was only a couple of months ago.  So I'm hoping that it isn't stuck too bad...but that reminds me, I need to pick up a couple of big pry bars.

 

However, the clutch has been getting progressively 'funnier'.  Most times it works normal, but sometimes it won't want to slip into a lower gear, and I have to double clutch to get it to slip in.  I've been going to do some looking around on here for some previous issues posted, and here comes the answer.....before the question, even.

 

So, before any more mind reading happens, I will also look into the sloppy shifter linkage, and possibly some bearing that gets worn out, causing it to want to slip out of 5th gear on decel...or is that part of the aforementioned 'clutch disengagement issues'?

[Fairtax4me]

Popping out of gear is an internal issue. The mainshaft ball bearing fails and allows the input shaft to move fore/aft which makes it pop out of gear. If the gear oil in the trans is clean, this probably won't ever be an issue. When the mainshaft bearing goes bad it fills the trans oil with fine silvery flakes.

 

The shifting issue you have sounds more like its due to old fluid, but could certainly be from a leaking slave cylinder. If you pull the rubber boot off of the cylinder and fluid comes out, the cylinder seals are bad.

[motorhead94]

Its definitely worth it if you take care of your Subaru it will last a long time, I've had issues here and there but I don't regret investing my money and time to fix these problems. I drive a 97 legacy outback 2.5 with 300k and she's still running great, I just perform regular tune ups when I change my oil (I just use conventional) and the only issues I ever have pretty minor. I hope my post helps you realize your car is a good investment.

[idosubaru]

yeah you want printed versions.  get the PDF versions and print off the pages you need - which should only be a couple dozen at most for the headgaskets.  or print batches:

1. timing belt/water pump

2. head gaskets

3.  engine pulling

 

shouldn't need much more than that.

 

1999-2002 Forester manual here:

http://manualmadness.com/1999-2002-subaru-forester-service-repair-manual/

 

Any 2000-2004 4 cylinder engine is the same as your 1999 Forester for headgasket repair.

2000 Legacy:

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/subaru_manual_scans/2000+_Legacy_FSM/

 

if you don't have much space - another option is to pull the car right up to the door - yank the engine and pull it inside.  do the pulling outside with bouts of snow removal and putting cardboard/carpet pieces on he cold ground - then do all the engine work inside.

[avg_joe]

.......

if you don't have much space - another option is to pull the car right up to the door - yank the engine and pull it inside.  do the pulling outside with bouts of snow removal and putting cardboard/carpet pieces on he cold ground - then do all the engine work inside.

I would HATE to have to do it like that, but if I had to, I guess I would.  But I was able to make enough room by shoving and stacking.

Thanks for the other links, and model year info.  Since I am a Soob noob, I don't want to jump to any conclusions, and wouldn't know what is what.  And there isn't a Subaru dealer, or a Subaru knowledgable mechanic(that I know of...yet) nearby for me to pester.  So all I know is what I've found here and on Youtube, and I have been absorbing as much as the old grey sponge will.

 

I will look into the trans gear oil.  I have fluid for all the gear boxes, and have every intention of replacing it all, while I have it inside, and torn apart.  I will look at the manual, and see if I can figure out what a clutch slave cylinder looks like, and where to find it.

 

I suspect that bearing is probably bad, though.  While in 5th, on power, the shifter moves toward neutral, and if I have my hand against the shifter when I come off the power, I can feel the shifter slide back into place.  If my hand isn't against the shifter, it falls out of gear.  It doesn't always do it, but seems to be more so after it has been driven for a while, and is fully warmed.

 

I took a couple of days off, but I'm going to work on it some more today.  I work overnights, and every other weekend, and this was my weekend on.  Plus, I have 3 damaged disks in my back from a ladder incident in the year 2000, which makes 'crouched over the fender' a torturous position....Which seems to hinder rapid progress.  I will keep plugging away at it, but it might be my summer ride, instead of my winter one.

[avg_joe]

They probably didn't resurface the heads and may have used aftermarket headgaskets...both of those are a bad idea for this particular engine.

 

So it might be worth saving, resurface the heads, and Install Subaru Turbo MLS headgaskets or Six Star and it's only $100 - $200 job so it's worth doing if you have the time.

 

Find GD's thread on here about resurfacing the heads yourself, it's really easy.

 

The 1999 Forester is a Phase II EJ25 and not as easily swapped to EJ22.  The Ej22 swap Miles mentioned above is not possible with a 99 forester (yes for a 98 forester or 99 legacy/outback but not a 99 forester).

It's not impossible but not the easy swap miles is talking about.

 

While the timing stuff is off - get a Gates kit off amazon with new pulleys and tensioner they'r eonly $120.  Or do it later if the head job goes well, the timing belt is actually really easy if you can do a headgasket.

 

A 100-200 dollar job?.......

Possibly forgot to mention some of the special tools needed?  Apparantly there is a special wrench for each pulley, and a whole host of goofy hardware to hold all the timing stuff together whilst it's apart......

And who knows what else.  This has begun to turn into a fiasco, and I'm starting to lose what little faith I had.

 

I have the engine out of the car, and in the garage, but now am stuck without having any of the special crap, and don't know if I should proceed with dis-assembly, or just hoist the engine over the engine bay, cut the chains and let it drop and send the whole works off to the crusher.