mjrvideo Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 (edited) Hi folks, long time stalker of the forum.... Now I need some help. GOt my daughter an 86 GL Wagon, I have an 85... Love these little tanks! But her's developed a couple of symptoms I'm trying to trouble shoot. Few days ago, her passengers headlight went very dim... Checked fuses, replaced out of principle. Nothing... couple days later at school it wouldn't start. Tried jumping it, nothing. The OS lights all come on, the electric fan kicks on, radio powers... but when ignition turned to start, nothing. Fan stops, lights go out... release starting position and all lights and fan come back on, figure that is just an interrupter mode while starting. maybe not. So, thought maybe starter... Replaced with good one from my 85 parts bin... Same symptoms. Starter does not engage... Took old starter to parts store, tested bad. Again, replacement starter was tested (good) before installing. Could be ignition switch I guess, but several people have told me that would be a long shot... Any help with gitting my girls little tank back on the road is much appreciated. I have read about the grounds and am going after them this weekend... Some where on this forum a guy listed 7 grounds to be checked and corrected. Plan to do that asap... Anybody have diagrams of exactly where they are located... I got an idea, but details always help. However, the starting thing is a bit odd to me. Car is an 86 GL Wagon Dual Range, 5sp... Hicrappy carb, no AC, No accessory lighting... Edited December 7, 2014 by mjrvideo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 (edited) Aside from the hot wire and the ground wire, there is a little spade connector on the starter as well. Double check you hooked that spade terminal back up as leaving it disconnected will lead to this situation. Aside from the electric fan running. That shouldn't be running unless the engine is warm or the site conditioner is on. Edit: just noticed, non ac car Edited December 6, 2014 by l75eya 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjrvideo Posted December 6, 2014 Author Share Posted December 6, 2014 (edited) Spade was hooked back on.. pretty cruddy... cleaned it and used electrical cleaner. Used very thin flat blade to scrape out any crud inside as best I could before re-installing... Will double check it... I try to make it a habit of cleaning thoroughly any parts I can when removing "just in case" scenario's... Thanks Forgot to mention I puiled hot and neg. wires off battery and cleaned everything up shiny and pretty. Baking soda is my friend! Put car on battery charger all night too... Edited December 6, 2014 by mjrvideo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 Here's a test : Disconnect the little wire from the back of the starter. Get a wire or test lead to connect to the back of the starter. Touch the other end to the battery + terminal. Expect a spark, and the starter to crank the engine. If you put the key in run, the car should start, if the first step worked. The main ground is the heavy wire from the battery to the upper starter mounting bolt. There should be a thinner [about 10AWG or so] from a tab on the coolant pipe that is above the driver's side timing belt. It connects to the body. There is another that connects the transmission to the body, in the area of the Diff oil dipstick. At least on an automatic. Pretty sure this stuff is the same on a stick. If the starter test works, you are looking for a bad / loose / intermittent connection in the power wiring, or the wiring that goes from the ignition switch to the transmission lockout, to a connector near the passenger side feet, to the starter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjrvideo Posted December 7, 2014 Author Share Posted December 7, 2014 DaveT, Did the wire test... Fired up right away! OK, so I will try and trace the wire as you described.... I will triple check the connector at the spade... not much wire to work with :-) Thanks tons!!! Any ideas on the dim passenger head light? Or was that in relation to your ground suggestions? Thanks to both of you. Will update you on the starting thing as soon as I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikaleda Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 (edited) If its a bad ignition switch, two screws a couple plugs and bam! Its done. You can remove the switch from the ignition cylinder and use a screwdriver and see if it will start. sometimes this will work because you can rock the switch past where it will go normally and you go past the dead spot. Dim headlight on one side is a bad ground in the lighting harness, the should be a chassis ground coming out of the harness on both sides of the car. It is possible its the nutruel safety switch. If its an auto you can try putting it in nutruel instead of park and see if it will start, if so its the safety switch. On a stick you can jumper the connector to the switch and see if that works. Edited December 7, 2014 by mikaleda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjrvideo Posted December 7, 2014 Author Share Posted December 7, 2014 (edited) Thanks Mikaleda, will try that next, it's a 5sp. Cleaned the grounds on drivers side engine to frame, also got the ground on passenger side from harness to strut... Also got the ground from tranny to spare tire support, but still need to clean the contact on the tranny itself... no change in the dim headlight. Gonna chase black with white tracer from spade connector on the back of the starter tomorrow morning when I can see better. You may be correct on the ignition too... I will pull the one off my parts car and try that after I try the connector reseating, and find the remaining grounds to clean up... Edited December 7, 2014 by mjrvideo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 This has been covered over and over. It's the ignition switch. You proved it by firing it off with the jumper. You need to add a relay....or a pushbutton....or both ideally. There is a pefect spot for a pushbutton just to the right of the column in the dash. the older subaru ignition switches get weak......I have fixed literally dozens of subaru cars with this exact same issue. The other option would be to replace the ignition switch itself. Not the lock cylinder....the switch itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Passenger headlight being dim is either it's fuse or the relay for it not passing power. Bulb is glowing from backfeed on the ground side of bulb from other side bulb. Relay under dash left of column in group of 4. It's one of the black connector ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjrvideo Posted December 8, 2014 Author Share Posted December 8, 2014 Thanks Gloyale... My hesitation in the button is my daughter attends a high school and I don't want anyone finding out the car can be started without a key and it ends up on some punks joy ride. But the push button sounds good and is my last resort. I want to do this the original way if possible first. So, here's what I did so far... Replaced spade connector at starter, jumped to battery. Starter triggered. Took jump to ignition switch, black/white tracer... starter triggered, checked at fuse box, blk/wht tracer, starter triggered. Re-attached blk/wht tracer at starter spade. Pulled ignition switch out, flat blade screwdriver and turned it. Triggers starter. Reconnect ignition to column, used key to turn to starting position and nothing... Starter does not engage with the key. Dim headlight corrected with new bulbs. Guess it was just failing cuz they r both bright and shiny now. Noticed two wires coming off the top of key side and am wondering if these could be not making proper contact internally... Thoughts? Thanks for all your input... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikaleda Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Its just a dead spot in the ignition switch. When you pulled it and used a screwdriver on it you turned it past the dead spot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I suggest you follow this link http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/149308-no-start-issues-for-1990-loyale-resolved-added-starter-relay/?fromsearch=1 I'm sure this method works so long as your ignition sends voltage to that small wire though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Thanks Gloyale... My hesitation in the button is my daughter attends a high school and I don't want anyone finding out the car can be started without a key and it ends up on some punks joy ride. But the push button sounds good and is my last resort. I want to do this the original way if possible first. No one is suggesting anything requiring no key. And why care about original? Is this a collector vehichle? The answer is no. If it can't be driven it's worthless. It on;y needs to work, safely. Need not be "original" The key would still need to be in the lock cylinder and turned to the one position. The button will on;y activate the starter. Without the key the worst they could do is drain the battery carnking it to no avail.....and if they hotwired it the steering lock would still be locked. It's the G$@#!*M switch.........why do people come here to ask then debate away the answers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjrvideo Posted December 8, 2014 Author Share Posted December 8, 2014 Wow GLoyale..... your harsh... Thanks for all the input regardless. Just don't see anything wrong with not jerry rigging everything even if it costs a bit more. Not debating anything away. The solutions everyone offered are terrific and helped me trouble shoot it down to what I believe is the actual problem. If I can not fix it any other way, I said I would go the way of the bypass. Not sure that is a crime. I75eya, DaveT and mikaleda, thanks for the patience and it was never intended to be an insult or waste of anyone's time which Gloyale seems to believe. Guess that's his perception, which makes it his reality. All you people helped me get it back on the road for my daughter's school tomorrow. THANKS TONS!!!!!! I believed in coming here that the forums were to bring multiple questions, multiple answers. Not everyone has the same experience and holy cow GLoyale, you bring a ton of experience to this forum. Didn't think I would be chastised for asking, and reasking. I apologize if you were offended at my wanting help and sorting through the multiple solutions to arrive at the answers that I needed for my repair. I work with lots of volunteers and understand that each persons level of understanding is different. Some take more or less to explain. Sometimes a person comes up with a method of doing something our organization hasn't thought of and we adopt it. They bring different levels of experience to each project. So, as my knowledge is limited on the Subie I came to this group. I'm not a pro mechanic. But love to work on cars and just about anything with my hands. And now I have several options, as solutions to the problem. For that I am grateful and hope to pass along the information gleaned from all this expertise to others that need it, like I did from all of you. However, I don't appreciate being sworn at on this forum regardless. Drive safe! Thanks to all who have helped. It is appreciated. Mikaleda, you aren't far from me... if you are ever down Spokane way.. look me up. Message me, mjrvideo@bigfoot.com. maybe we can talk subies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR_Loyale Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 (edited) DaveT, Did the wire test... Fired up right away! OK, so I will try and trace the wire as you described.... I will triple check the connector at the spade... not much wire to work with :-) Thanks tons!!! Any ideas on the dim passenger head light? Or was that in relation to your ground suggestions? Thanks to both of you. Will update you on the starting thing as soon as I can. Mine had a similar issue and it was a bad relay. Glad you found it was just a bulb. Edited December 8, 2014 by MR_Loyale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 You're welcome. I tend to like to fix things so they are "stock", or improved. I did use the button start add on - on my rusted out beater that was soon to retire, and only I drove. I fought with finding the cause of the intermittent start thing years ago. Eventually decided the add on relay was worth a try. Way less work than dealing with the ignition switch, I figure. The wiring rout from the key to the starter is long, so better off with a relay anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjrvideo Posted December 8, 2014 Author Share Posted December 8, 2014 Thanks DaveT, I'm in that same camp. Plus it's for my teenage daughter and image is everything :-) LOL. The relay is certainly forefront on both my brain cells. You guys are great!!! My daughter is a happy camper too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikaleda Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I'm not in Spokane to often, but will let you know if I'm in the area. I like meeting fellow Subaru enthusiasts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish-N-Fool Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 If this is a auto tranny I would check the nuteral safety switch or if it is a 5 speed the clutch safety switch before you did anything else. Both are designed to not let the car start when in gear and they go bad quite often. it is an EZ test to jump arond them with a wire if the car starts, replace the switch. The Clutch switch is up under the dash on the pedal assembly and I believe the auto is on the floor shifter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish-N-Fool Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I'm not in Spokane to often, but will let you know if I'm in the area. I like meeting fellow Subaru enthusiasts Hey mikey we are almost neighbors, I'm just east of P.R. 12 miles in Vay. maybe you could come by and help me with my problem? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikaleda Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I did just start a mobile repair bussines. I have customers as far away as Usk and spirit lake, most of my bissiness is at the lake during the summer, but this time of year I do travel other directions. Pm if you want, I might be able to point you in the right direction to figuring out your problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Yes in a 3AT the starter disable is in the shifter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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