1997 EJ25D to EJ22E first timer swap

[pginter96]

UPDATE: Its been a while since the swap, I added an interesting discovery about the EJ25 in a reply on the second page if anyone is interested. 

 

Hey everyone! As swap time moves nearer, I decided to move the thread from "EJ22 Build- Discussion, Suggestions, and Advice for a First-Timer" to here, in hopes to neaten things up and confirm that I'm not building some crazy turbo-frankenmotor-stroker, just a plain old EJ22E with fancy painted valve covers. Im still putting the finishing touches on the motor itself, I still need to find an intact center timing belt cover and a harmonic balancer, along with a small collection of nuts, bolts, coolant hoses, and vacuum lines. Not to mention the UEL headers... (Its a race car! )

 

The swap is still a week out, maybe more depending on parts. the EJ25D is starting to overheat pretty regularly now. Ill add coolant to the radiator and burp it later today, as if that'll make a difference.

-EDIT- took maybe a quart, so its not leaking from anywhere, just air caveating in the water pump...

 

So until then, Ill pester you with my questions!

 

-In terms of registration and insurance, what should I say, if anything? I seriously doubt anyone from the DMV or USAA is going to be able to look under the hood and tell the two engines apart, or even really know what a boxer is!

 

-Anyone know where I can find timing belt covers? every one in the junkyard is smashed, apart from a phase II EJ222, but, ya know why that wont work... I threw the original one out, and if it had a part number on it, either I'm blind or it was destroyed.

  -EDIT- apparently the EJ25 one will work

 

-What sort of break-in procedures should I be aware of? I plan on running Mobile 1 synthetic (SEE EDIT), however I've heard that its best to break-in with conventional to help things seat, and change it after the first 50-100 miles. The engine hasn't run in at least a year.

  -EDIT- I'll just be running CONVENTIONAL OIL. My Chrysler teacher works for a local Subaru dealer (yep, he quit a dodge dealer to work for Subaru) and has told me horror stories about what happens to these engines if you use zinc-free oil, such as Mobile 1. And apparently since this is a roller motor, there really isn't a "break in" other than cooking the moisture out of it. He said the best thing I could do is start it and let it idle for about an hour, then change the oil and filter. (obviously if it starts clacking away shut 'er down and throw an oil pressure gauge on).  He's also said that of all the motor pulls he's done, Subarus are the easiest. the worst part is the two studs/bolts that must be removed on the top of the engine. Surprised to see its only like 3 pages in the service info...

 

-Coolant passages... they're all crusty. Should I be concerned and run a garden hose through there to clean them out or will they self clean when coolant starts to move?

 

Thanks! Sorry if my questions are pretty basic and annoying, but I'm 18 and don't have many other financially viable options and need this car to get to college and work. I paid $4,000 for this car and its practically worthless as it sits, so I cant sell it for a better car 'cause no one will buy a car with bad head gaskets for $4,000. 

Edited March 24, 2015 by pginter96

[hogweed]

i am prepping for this swap as well.....bad 97 obw w/ a 2.5 getting a 95 2.2

 

also need to do something w/ the 1999 forester but i'm thinking about headgaskets for that one.

 

edit: your shop looks so clean it makes me want to cry

Edited December 17, 2014 by hogweed

[pginter96]

i am prepping for this swap as well.....bad 97 obw w/ a 2.5 getting a 95 2.2

 

also need to do something w/ the 1999 forester but i'm thinking about headgaskets for that one.

 

edit: your shop looks so clean it makes me want to cry

Interesting. What are the differences between the 95 and 97, as far as I know its a different manifold and brackets are moved around, and its a non-interference motor. Is it single port or dual port?

 

Haha thank you, its just my garage but I'm sooo OCD about everything. All of my bolts and small parts are in small ziplock bags individually labled...

But its a whole different story at work! Haha

[AdventureSubaru]

Do nothing with registration/insurance. It wont make any difference.

 

I have a set of timing covers I'll sell you but I'm out of town until after the new year. PM me if interested.

 

What's the mileage on the ej22? I think synthetic is a waste of money on these cars. Use any decent oil and keep it topped off as these motors inevitably leak. Change it every 3000 miles. Anything else is overkill and I've heard negative effects of using synthetics on engines over 75-100k 

 

If the coolant passages are real ugly, you can clean them, but if it's just the usual white residue, just run it.

 

Auto or manual trans? If auto - be sure you have the torque converter seated properly or you can destroy the pump. If manual - are you replacing the clutch while in there?

 

Great swap. Done it a few times. A little less power. WAAAAY more reliability.

[pginter96]

Do nothing with registration/insurance. It wont make any difference.

 

I have a set of timing covers I'll sell you but I'm out of town until after the new year. PM me if interested.

 

What's the mileage on the ej22? I think synthetic is a waste of money on these cars. Use any decent oil and keep it topped off as these motors inevitably leak. Change it every 3000 miles. Anything else is overkill and I've heard negative effects of using synthetics on engines over 75-100k 

 

If the coolant passages are real ugly, you can clean them, but if it's just the usual white residue, just run it.

 

Auto or manual trans? If auto - be sure you have the torque converter seated properly or you can destroy the pump. If manual - are you replacing the clutch while in there?

 

Great swap. Done it a few times. A little less power. WAAAAY more reliability.

Thanks, Ill let you know if I cant track one down in the next couple days.

 

Dont know the exact milage, supposably around 140k.

 

Its an automatic. I know to swap the flexplate from the 2.5 to the 2.2, and I got a new metal oil seperator cover that I'll replace while I can get to it.

The part Im really worried about is seperating and re-mounting to the drivetrain. Ive never seated a torque converter before. Ive taken a few transmissions out at work, but as an apprentice its pretty rare that I stay with a big job all the way through.

What should I be aware of?

[pginter96]

Is the harmonic dampener interchangable between the 22 and the 25?

[AdventureSubaru]

Yep. Same part. At 100k plus, I'd stick with conventional oil.

 

For the torque converter, have the "pitch rod stopper/Dog Bone/upper trans mount disconnected and jack the trans up before pulling the motor. If so, the torque converter should stay seated. You can measure from the back of the starter hole. Should be 1/8 of an inch between the bellhousing and torque converter.

 

If the converter comes out with the motor, slide it back in. (make sure the metal tube is attached to the back of it) Hold the nub in the center to keep it level while rotating it clockwise. There are 3 different little clunks before it is seated 100%.

[Gloyale]

Is the harmonic dampener interchangable between the 22 and the 25?

 

Yes...

 

And I believe the center timing cover from the 25d will fit the 22e.

 

Phase II covers are totally different.

[pginter96]

Thank you. If not, Ill add that to the list of things to get from the parts dept at the Subaru dealer. The list isnt long now, but Im sure it will be after I start taking things apart and breaking them...

 

At work today, I installed (and watched the rebuild of) a caravan transmission with my mentor. He knows my current situation, and he let me seat the torque coverter so I could know what it should feel like.

[idosubaru]

there's a great thread on here with pictures/measurements/references as to what is really close but not seated and what is actually fully seated.

 

simply put it's this:  the flexplate and torque converter DO NOT touch when the engine and trans are pulled together.  the torque converter bolts actually pull the TC slightly out of the trans to pull it flush to the flexplate.

so based on that same illustration - you can simply measure the difference:

 

1.  distance between flexplate and bellhousing mating surface on engine

2.  distance between torque conveter flexplate mounting surface and mounting surface of bellhousing on transmission.

 

if the numbers add up such that they'll touch - it's not fully seated.

 

i have never added that way - it's just an illustration and a definitive test you could do for a first timer unfamiliar with Subarus wanting to get it right before they drop the engine into the car.

[pginter96]

There's a small coolant line that goes from the water pump to a coolant pipe. the hose is about 4 inches long and bends at a 90 degree angle. the original got damaged when I replaced the water pump. I've tried using heater hose but it kinks because its such an awkward position for it. the original is pre-formed. does anyone know what this hose is called and/or where I can find one? or does anyone have any idea of some other type of hose that wont kink?

 

EDIT I bought a "bypass hose" from RockAuto a week or so ago thinking it was that but the bypass hose is apparently for the radiator.

Edited December 26, 2014 by pginter96

[Gloyale]

 It is the bypass for before the thermostat opens.  It is the return from the heater core.

 

A "bypass" hose for any older For V8 will work perfectly for that coolant hose. (289, 302, 351, 352, 360, 390, 400)

[pginter96]

The swap has begun!

 

just noticed yesterday that my EJ22 doesn't have evap lines on it. The car's a 97 so the canister is in the front of the engine bay. Can I just take the lines off the 25 and put them on the 22 or is it a bigger problem than I know of?

Also, any tips for how to disconnect throttle cables?

[lmdew]

Throttle Cables, loosen the 2 12mm nuts, run the back one completely off until you can slide it out of the bracket.  You can now bring the cable around to line it up with the slot in the throttle cam and remove them.  There is a metal tab on the bottom of the cam that you have to slide the cable past.

 

Yes, you can swap the lines, it's pretty time consuming as you need the valves associated with the system as well as the electrical harness.  It can all be swapped, just make sure you route the harness the same as there is not much room between the engine and the harness when you bolt the intake back up.

[pginter96]

oil pan-

cork gasket or RTV? pretty sure I over-torqued the cork gasket, don't really want to take the chance. will RTV alone be enough?

[Gloyale]

"the Right Stuff" or at least a good RTV is all that should be used for the pan.

 

Cork gasket will leak for sure.  Factory came with just sealant.

 

For Evap run a line from the Evap solenoid on the mani over to the canister, and then up to the port on the intake.  Easier than swapping lines from a 2.5 mani to a 2.2

[pginter96]

Thanks for tips on the evap

 

Lower engine to trans mount nut on drivers side is near impossible to get to. At least without taking off the axle shaft, but that can't happen in my garage. Any tips?

 

EDIT got the nut

Edited December 28, 2014 by pginter96

[pginter96]

 

Hard part's done

Well, one of the hard parts...

[pginter96]

My 2.2 has two metal lines along the left bank that run under the engine that the 2.5 doesn't have. They aren't connected to anything on the engine, have cut rubber hoses on the front and two fittings on either side of the EGR tube on the back. Are these just trans cooler lines? My car just has them mounted on the frame. Just want to make sure...

Edited December 29, 2014 by pginter96

[pginter96]

EJ22 is in!

No difficulties. The only thing that worried me is that when (before) I went to install the flexplate-to-torque converter bolts, I spun the engine and the torque converter spun with it. Then when I went around to the starter hole and the torque converter spun on its own, with no abnormal resistance. After that the engine and torque converter spun free of each other allowing me to put the bolts in. Im almost positive that it didnt shift with the engine removed. While installing the flexplate bolts, the flexplate and torque converter had a small gap between them.

 

 

 

(Shoutout to Inferno Fabrications for the awesome headers)

Edited December 31, 2014 by pginter96

[MilesFox]

I am going to comment on the oil. My comment comes from both that i work at an oil shop, use mobil brand, and have an ej22e swapped forester

 

What your chrysler tech says has some merit. But that school of thought comes from old school chrysler engines. For a conventional oil, you should use a 10w40 as it is good to -4 degrees F same as a 10w30. "5w30 is not recommended for sustained high speed operation" says the subaru owners book. In refernce to chrysler, the late model 6.1 and 6.4 engines DO call for a full synthetic 0w40 oil meeting chrysler material standard 11106 (ask your chrysler guy's opinion on that one)

 

I am using Mobil1 0w40 in my ej22e. I use it in all my subarus including ej25d. The brand is labelled "European formula" and meets the chrysler spec as well as BMW, mercedes, volkswagen, porsche and is formulated 'for flat tappet cams'. The 0w40 mobil has a ZDDP content of 1000, same as the super high mileage 10w30 synthetic blend, and the high mileage mobil 1 full syn for 10w30. For the subaru a 40 wt oil is preferred such as a 10w40, or with a full syn 5w40 or 0w40. The diesel oils such as delvac1300 super and mobil 1 turbo diesel truck 5w40 have 1200 ZDDP. A conventional 10w30, 5w30, 5w20 and full sy of these viscositoes are between 600 and 800 for today's sensitive cats.

 

My engine had not run for 6 mo when i put it together with heads from another engine. I had a hard lifter tick that went away after 10 mi of driving.

 

The mobil1 0w40 is a good fit for the subaru and a mobil 1 104 filter to pair for 10000 mi or 12 mo service. I can assure you my lifter tick has not returned, and it actually slowed up my oil consumption to 1 qt in 5000 mi (new pcv valve, no leaks)

 

You will not want to use a 5w30 oil in synthetic in accordance to your teacher. But even a current spec conventional oil has low zinc as the current standard for oil as API SN. The diesel oils that can be used for gasoline meet the API SM standard.

 

The ej25d or ej22e will call for anythig form "5w30 all temps" for API starburst seal 'energy conserving' for USA economy requirements for the time of manufacture, but is not recommended, strait 30, 10w30, 10w40, 20w50 from -4 deg fto 104 deg F, straight 40, strait 50 for temps above 95 degrees, and 20w40, 20w50. A 0w40 gives you better cold flow at start up which makes it appropriate for -0 weather as a 0w40 will flow more readily when cold than a 5w30, but is stiffer at temp than a 5w30. Common convention says that oil thins out withy temp, but this is not true with  today's multi-viscosity oils. And that broader viscosity index with a 0w oil is possible with the refinement process of synthetic oils where a 0w is not possible with a straight conventional oil.

 

And chrysler expertise cannot be applied to subaru the same, in general.
 

Oh yeah, i forgot to mention that my engine has 250,000 mi and 150,000 mi heads. The synthetic 0w40 is doing a good job of washing the carbon out of the rings and reducing consumption. I may change it soon after 5-6000 mi but this is why i have the good filter on there, and know that i could stretch it up to 10000 mi or 12 mo

 

A lot of advice about syn oil is 'i heard this, someone told me that' but my advice comes from my own expertise and experience and  my own application fo such, with being in the oil service industry and having more than 50 subarus over the last 15 years.

 

To each his own, but 40 wt is the golden rule of any flavor

Edited December 31, 2014 by MilesFox

[pginter96]

I am going to comment on the oil. My comment comes from both that i work at an oil shop, use mobil brand, and have an ej22e swapped forester

 

What your chrysler tech says has some merit. But that school of thought comes from old school chrysler engines. For a conventional oil, you should use a 10w40 as it is good to -4 degrees F same as a 10w30. "5w30 is not recommended for sustained high speed operation" says the subaru owners book. In refernce to chrysler, the late model 6.1 and 6.4 engines DO call for a full synthetic 0w40 oil meeting chrysler material standard 11106 (ask your chrysler guy's opinion on that one)

 

I am using Mobil1 0w40 in my ej22e. I use it in all my subarus including ej25d. The brand is labelled "European formula" and meets the chrysler spec as well as BMW, mercedes, volkswagen, porsche and is formulated 'for flat tappet cams'. The 0w40 mobil has a ZDDP content of 1000, same as the super high mileage 10w30 synthetic blend, and the high mileage mobil 1 full syn for 10w30. For the subaru a 40 wt oil is preferred such as a 10w40, or with a full syn 5w40 or 0w40. The diesel oils such as delvac1300 super and mobil 1 turbo diesel truck 5w40 have 1200 ZDDP. A conventional 10w30, 5w30, 5w20 and full sy of these viscositoes are between 600 and 800 for today's sensitive cats.

 

My engine had not run for 6 mo when i put it together with heads from another engine. I had a hard lifter tick that went away after 10 mi of driving.

 

The mobil1 0w40 is a good fit for the subaru and a mobil 1 104 filter to pair for 10000 mi or 12 mo service. I can assure you my lifter tick has not returned, and it actually slowed up my oil consumption to 1 qt in 5000 mi (new pcv valve, no leaks)

 

You will not want to use a 5w30 oil in synthetic in accordance to your teacher. But even a current spec conventional oil has low zinc as the current standard for oil as API SN. The diesel oils that can be used for gasoline meet the API SM standard.

 

The ej25d or ej22e will call for anythig form "5w30 all temps" for API starburst seal 'energy conserving' for USA economy requirements for the time of manufacture, but is not recommended, strait 30, 10w30, 10w40, 20w50 from -4 deg fto 104 deg F, straight 40, strait 50 for temps above 95 degrees, and 20w40, 20w50. A 0w40 gives you better cold flow at start up which makes it appropriate for -0 weather as a 0w40 will flow more readily when cold than a 5w30, but is stiffer at temp than a 5w30. Common convention says that oil thins out withy temp, but this is not true with today's multi-viscosity oils. And that broader viscosity index with a 0w oil is possible with the refinement process of synthetic oils where a 0w is not possible with a straight conventional oil.

 

And chrysler expertise cannot be applied to subaru the same, in general.

 

Oh yeah, i forgot to mention that my engine has 250,000 mi and 150,000 mi heads. The synthetic 0w40 is doing a good job of washing the carbon out of the rings and reducing consumption. I may change it soon after 5-6000 mi but this is why i have the good filter on there, and know that i could stretch it up to 10000 mi or 12 mo

 

A lot of advice about syn oil is 'i heard this, someone told me that' but my advice comes from my own expertise and experience and my own application fo such, with being in the oil service industry and having more than 50 subarus over the last 15 years.

 

To each his own, but 40 wt is the golden rule of any flavor

Thanks for the info!

Well due to a small issue I am running conventional 10-40. I think it's valvoline, I feel horrible not knowing but it's the only thing they had 20 minutes before the store closed.

 

The issue?

The EJ22 knocks. Started it up for the first time today and it had a pretty ugly knock. Sounded like mid-end (can't be bottom end on a boxer apparently) and went away under rev/load. Just about to take it on its maiden voyage. I used 5-30 for break in and it knocked for half an hour, so drained that oil and put in 10-40 in hopes that the heavier oil would help. I don't know if it did or if my head is just playin games with me. Also a loud tick but I'm pretty sure it's an exhaust leak.

Had a code for an IAC so I just swapped one over from the 25.

Wish me luck- I just want my baby back on the road

[Gloyale]

My 2.2 has two metal lines along the left bank that run under the engine that the 2.5 doesn't have. They aren't connected to anything on the engine, have cut rubber hoses on the front and two fittings on either side of the EGR tube on the back. Are these just trans cooler lines? My car just has them mounted on the frame. Just want to make sure...

 

Yeah those lines are for the trans cooler.

 

Seen that on newer 2.5 but never on a 2.2.....What did it come out of?

[pginter96]

Well it drives great. Little gutless on the hills, but it feels like it has more low-end torque than the 25.

And this motor has a front crank seal leak as well! Oh well, these motors have to leak from somewhere. Its automatic rustproofing.

As for the knock, it has gotten a lot quieter. Goes away entirely when the engine is under load.

It threw a P1143 (if I remember correctly) code, for the PSSS or purge solenoid. Figures, I havent done anything to hook up the canister yet.

The tick is still pretty prevalent. Sounds like valvetrain maybe?

Anyways, Im just glad it runs.

[pginter96]

Yeah those lines are for the trans cooler.

 

Seen that on newer 2.5 but never on a 2.2.....What did it come out of?

Honestly I have no idea. The vin area is too corroded to read at all, theres no vin left.

People here on the forum tell me its a 97-98, and it has a single piece, arm-type timing belt tensioner that either haynes or gates says is for 98 and up. It doesnt have hookups for a front evap canister either, have no idea where they are on imprezas but i know they are rear mounted on 99 legacies. This is all pretty vague I know, but your guess is as good as mine.