mickytrus Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Hello, Yeah so...... Why would I want to pull the head.... First, 92 loyale 1.8 non turbo..... 227K regasketed at 160K.... Just did timing belt at about 225K cam seals main seal micky mouse seal.... First, what I noticed a ways back... is like what I thought might be a sticking thermostat.... She runs pretty cool...... got a 190 in it I believe.... the cooler one doesn't throw any heat...So I went with the 190 When I would start it from cold.... It would rise up abnormally. and then settle down... to the "normal" spot.... It would never rise up crazily again during the ride. So several weeks back.... the overflow was contaminated..... sort of black...... now..... I had a case of the thermostatic relay failing..... It has been cold.... so I was not in so much of a hurry to replace it...... but problem being.... I was unseemingly gettting stuck in traffic....... and the car would rise up.... It never went into the red..... but came rather close.... I had to run the heater to keep it cool......(I removed the AC fan and the AC) So back to the is the head gasket leaking...... The overflow was contaminated.... So I fixed the thermostatic fan switch put in a new thermostat and flushed out the system with clean water and filled system and threw in some Kseal.... sealer....... Anyway, to also mention...... there is some gurlgling that can be heard in the heater core........ at times.......... I don't think the Kseal fixed anything..... though temp wise it seems more stable.... I do seem to be adding antifreeze...... and there is drips coming out of the exhaust....... and it is smoky but not smelling like antifreeze.... I am wondering about the gasket under the throttle body...... I wonder if it is. leaking there???????? car runs pretty good and strong for 227K... there is a slight miss that can be felt........ sometimes.... while driving... Let me know what you think... Micky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Replace the Throttle body gasket. But you will probably end up doing the headgaskets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superpoo93 Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 You may find the intake gasket is leaking in to the head... , either pass or driver side. The last time I had smoke/steam coming out of the exhaust, that was the issue. Check your spark plugs to see if they fouled as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superpoo93 Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 You said your heater, is not producing a lot of heat? Have you taken the in/out et hoses off and flushed with water?? Warm your cat up and check the inlet an outlet hose. The inlet will be hot and the outlet will be a lot cooler, if your heating core has junk in it. Leave the hoses connected at the firewall, and disconnect at engine. Just need a spray nozzle to force the water through, use like a water bottle to catch the crap coming out. Should make a big difference in heat coming out of the vents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted December 25, 2014 Author Share Posted December 25, 2014 All good points to consider... Yeah, ... I 'll check compression before I pull the head... Hoping , this at a last resort..... I'll pickup that throttle body gasket and do that.... I should see what happens when I start the car... with the radiator cap off too. Any other things to look for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 Nothing to loose checking the intake and the throttle body gaskets & seals. But with black in the recovery, repeated over normal temps. Constantly small amounts of "air" in the coolant. I bet the headgasket /s are failing. It may slowly get worse. Maybe a few days, maybe a few months. Voice of experience, more than a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted December 28, 2014 Author Share Posted December 28, 2014 Yes, I think I a gonna go in and do the head gaskets... Driverside is not leaking... I'll give a good check.... but it looks good from what I remember.. Passenger side looks like it spits out at the axle... Has anyone ever just decided to do just one side....??? Keep in mind I regasket at about 60,000 miles ago with the (ishino-- gaskets) I just figured I would ask....... THe one thing that bums me out all the time when I do this work IS.... the exhaust flange mounting bolts..... They always seem to be destroyed.... and the heads go to the machine shop....... Does anybody have any recommendations for removal of the Nuts and (10mm studs - I believe)..... Also.... what about a special kind of nut... to rebolt the exhaust flange back on...... Like anybody use copper nuts? I have used stainless nuts and it seems that is not the way to go.... maybe if I have both stainless nuts and stainless studs....... Let me know what you think? Thanks, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 I have searched for stainless studs. Never found any with the same pitch threads. I use stainless nuts, and anti seize. Real stainless flanges and washers and lock washers help too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 *** What brand intake manifold gasket did you use last time? if you used aftermarket intake manifold gaskets last time then that could very well be the problem. SUbaru intake manifold gakets are thick and robust, aftermarkts are flimsy paper looking things and prone to leak coolant into the head. if you end up doing the head gaskets. 1. use a Subaru headgasket - or Fel Pro if you're desperate to avoid Subaru 2. resurface the heads - easily done yourself, find the thread on here about it 3. use Subaru intake manifold gaskets - the aftermarkets suck the exhaust studs are 12mm x 1.25 pitch threads. there are two easy methods to repair that don't require machine shops: you can tap them for a larger size standard thread with easily sourced bolt - no drilling required - lots of threads about that on here too. if you have a drill just helicoil or timesert them. if you can find orginal SUbaru exhaust nuts they are superior - or match their grade/material, i'm unsure what they are. someone from a non-rust state might mail you some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobiedubie Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 60,000 miles is not uncommon for head gasket life. The black residue is likely the expanding gases pushing past the head gaskets, taking a little bit with them and depositing in the coolant. Loose cylinder head bolts will help cause this. But since the gaskets are now disintegrating, you are likely going to have to replace them since simply tightening the bolts will not stop them from coming apart. As far as the exhaust gasket bolts threads getting stripped, either the mechanic overtightened the nuts or somebody got under your car and cranked on the nuts enough to strip them out the thread inside of the block. This tends to happen when you park outside and have acquired some criminal enemies who have basic understanding of subarus. Coil inserts will fix the problem the first time. Replacement cylinder heads will fix it after that. Then it would be a good time to upgrade to Gen 3 heads. A good fix is those keyed end threaded studs where you can't get enough torque on the stud to strip the cylinder head threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hsoj Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 Since your down there....What about the crack that happens between the exhaust ports when the engine overheats? You know, pull the exhaust and look up inside the head and that spot right in the middle that is kind of an ea82 weak spot, maybe with some spray cleaner and a rag so you can see the crack better. I'd just go with american standard thread pitch if you have a tap for it, save the helicoils for later. Does the motor drip wet exhaust spray? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted December 29, 2014 Author Share Posted December 29, 2014 Thanks, for the info... THe question "does the motor drip wet exhaust spray"? I am not sure what this referrs to..... Guessing: I will reply with tail pipe has a slight gonnarial drip to it now.... one of the heads (passenger side) seems to be dripping.. (maybe even spraying out..) I should put my hand next to it while it is running... or even a piece if paper......... INstalling gaskets..... I have been getting Ishino gaskets for the subies..... anybody have any comments regarding them? (good or bad) Does anybody use coppercoat on the head gaskets? I have been generally putting them on dry...... Head resurface: Yeah, thanks for mentioning that about resurfacing at home I found that thread several years back.... using glass and spray glue and wet/dry sand paper and wd-40...... (what a great use for WD40) Do you know if you can get the exhaust studs and nuts at a dealer still ????? I wonder THanks, Micky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Exhaust studs are M10x1.25 not M12. ............strip them out the thread inside of the block. This tends to happen when you park outside and have acquired some criminal enemies who have basic understanding of subarus. Coil inserts will fix the problem the first time. Replacement cylinder heads will fix it after that. Then it would be a good time to upgrade to Gen 3 heads. I assume this is a joke.....but to be clear. First....it's the head not the block that's stripped. Second....Tap for 7/16th is easier/cheaper than helicoil and leaves room for a helicoil later if they strip again (which they wont if you seat the stud right) 3rd.....the "gen 3" head improvement applies only to the MPFI dual port heads. No difference and nothing to gain from swapping heads for him. Since your down there....What about the crack that happens between the exhaust ports when the engine overheats? You know, pull the exhaust and look up inside the head and that spot right in the middle that is kind of an ea82 weak spot, maybe with some spray cleaner and a rag so you can see the crack better. I'd just go with american standard thread pitch if you have a tap for it, save the helicoils for later. Bingo. Except also the exhaust cracks tend to be on turbo only cars......not a problem on N/A engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The FNG Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 I hope this applies to the current situation of the topic: From my **real** experience with some of the issues you are having, for things such as intake manifold gaskets and thermostats, use ONLY Subaru OEM. Trust me and spend the extra few $$ upfront and save time and frustration. I would suggest that your temporary weird over-heating problem is your thermostat (ask me how I know). If you are having coolant issues that are not revealed in your compression test, it may be your intake manifold gaskets. Subaru gaskets are not too expensive ($12 iirc) and they are much higher quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 The Heads are off the vehicle... In doing so I encountered a couple of things... A couple of excessively loose head bolts.... and some very slight scoring in rear cylinder passenger side. See attached picture......... As for compression...... cranking about ten times..... yielded compression above 140 psi on all cylinders.... One was as high as 150psi........ Besides the gurgling and the pushing of antifreeze into the overflow reservior the car was still running pretty strong for its mileage.... I am thinking the cylinder score happened several months back... when I was pushing the car up a long long hill... and trying to pass someone. who would not let me pass... on the highway...... I eventually let off the gas after a hesitation of some sorts occurred......... I would appreciate some input.... regarding some measures to take...... Like simply regasketing the motor,.., leaving as is..... or providing some attention to things...... The car as I had mentioned earlier has 227K on it...... If I got another 60K out of it that would be good..... Not that we are any good at fortune telling...... But, let me know what you think... Thanks, Micky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The FNG Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 The gurgling I may contribute to not properly "burping" the coolant system. I just honestly feel like you really didn't need to pull the heads, but since you did, I would get a fel-pro head gasket kit HS9392PT2 and maybe some valve stem seals. I would get OEM Intake manifold gaskets and an OEM thermostat (OEM means Subaru, not the OEM brand). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 I would like to think that It was just air........ but, It was/is consuming coolant..... and it would push/gush into the over flow when the vehicle was turned off.... No, this is not a matter of just some air in the system..... Yeah, I know what OEM means...... Above is a pic of one of the cylinders..... Very slight scoring........ Again, Like I had mentioned in an earlier post... The car ran fine. Power was good considering the mileage on vehicle...... There was some increase of combustion pressure which could be noticed while running vehicle at idle and opening the Oil fill and putting your hand over it compared to previously(60k) ago. Can someone give me an idea(what can one expect to see) of what the inside of the combustion chamber will look like when there has been some kind of infiltration of antifreeze for some period of time? (what does the build up on the pistons look like?) So yeah, I will pick up some felpro gaskets for the heads...... Seems collectively people preferr them,........ Does anybody have an opinion about putting them on dry or (using copper coat) on them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Gurgling is usually just air. Constant coolant level rising in the recovery = failing head gasket. Not just the temporary rise from normal expansion, which is drawn back into the engine when cooled to room temp. Everything I have seen say no sealer or the like is to be used on head gaskets. Do be sure the block and heads don't have impressions from the fire rings of the old gaskets. Get the Subaru re enforced o ring for the oil channel that suplies the cam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdweninger Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 HG's go on dry. No sealant required. Make sure the block and head surface is clean and flat. You can hand-lap your heads in 30 minutes - or have a machine shop do them. Important - Make sure to chase/clean the threads in your block and your head bolts. Use proper torque sequence. Ok to go 5# over. Something going wrong with your torque wrench ... you shouldn't have loose head bolts. Maybe borrow or buy a better torque wrench - use 1/2 drive. good luck with your re-seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikaleda Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 The only reason people ever use sealent on a headgasket is on older cast iron motors that have piting on the mating surface that can't be taken care of any other way. It is never the proper way to instal a head gasket and anyone who knows what their doing will never do this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The FNG Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 It's ok to ask questions you don't know the answer to . If he didn't ask, chances are that it wouldn't be done properly. I would venture to say that the vast majority of people in the world do things without knowing what they're doing; mistakes are made, lessons are learned, and if we are lucky enough those lessons are shared here in the form of knowledge. People come here for help, not to be burned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikaleda Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 It's ok to ask questions you don't know the answer to . If he didn't ask, chances are that it wouldn't be done properly. I would venture to say that the vast majority of people in the world do things without knowing what they're doing; mistakes are made, lessons are learned, and if we are lucky enough those lessons are shared here in the form of knowledge. People come here for help, not to be burned.I'm not trying to burn anyone, I'm just tired of hearing this comon misconception.It just makes me wonder why its so prevalant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 Hey, Thanks for the info.... I believe one of the things these days is that there are too many products... Causing too many choices..... These companies make more and more products each year...... I would just rather ask a seasoned person what the gig is... and It is good that I can get some valid reasons based on experience. I have been keeping "my wrecks" going for a very long time..... Seems that I have been stuck on these Subie loyales lately,(last twenty five years) I have had five of them......(love hate relationship)..... Running two now... with two parts cars in the rear..... Funny I just had both of them break down... With serious mechanical problems..... Though it is taking up alot of my present time..... I hope that I can return them to fully operating trustworthy vehicles, with more life to come....and problem free...... It is great to have this forum to come to , to get info. That is what it is for...... And sowhat what one may ask... It is great they are keeping these cars(that were ahead of their time) alive...... It is good however to point someone to old threads...... I have tried to search for stuff with the search engine..... It sometimes gets me to what I need..... Sometimes it does not...... (Ie: above in this post someone refers to the resurfacing thread for heads.... what a great thread) Thanks, Micky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 The head thread was named something like "post apocalyptic head resurfacing " 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Well, I began putting the heads back on.... All cleaned up nice.... did the apocalyptic head resurfacing.... All was going well,,,, driver side is on nicely.... As for the passenger side..... I have run into problems... it is the cylinder where I have a little scoring..... the head bolt #5 head bolt to be exact...... Well, it is not tightening....... It appears to be stripped .... I couldn't even get it to the first (20) ft pounds.... sequence..... So I ask the forum..... How do I fix this........ I haven't ever drilled and taped anything this critical before.... So If I can get and Idea where I am going with this..... I will collect the necessary stuff..... you reccomend..... and get this done.... thanks.. Look forward to hearing your suggestions...... Micky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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