Brakes won't let me pull out of the parking lot...

[LovemyGLWGN]

I saw that this topic was covered once, in 2005.  The article was: 

Brakes won't give me a break, posted by afojc, 19th Nov. 2005 and it gave me some insight, but still would like to ask additional questions.  Thought perhaps it might be time to put this topic up again, in case anyone else is still running into difficulty with this.

1. Subaru drove home when I bought it, but emergency brake wouldn't hold, and it sounded like possible rear brakes starting metal to metal.  Sent it to neighborhood 'mechanic', and had brakes done, including rear shoes.  

2. Could barely pull it out of there.  He apologized, but said he was unable to find out any more info as to how to control, or adjust brakes for the 'hill' stops.  But now, it will barely drive.  If I park on anything other than the Salt Flats, it doesn't want to unlock. 

3.  I live in a fine area of people, but right now, I have 'mechanics' wanting to rebuild the whole rear end...!  

4.  Simple suggestions greatly appreciated.  I am past my days of my own wrench, and physically, ability is becoming limited.  I could probably still get brakes off and on, but I would rather explain it to a young man...  I have had my turn, and right now, would like to do the minimum to get it to a real mechanic if needed.    

5.  Thus, can I remove rear brakes and drive it to a mechanic...(60 miles away)?

 

Totally appreciate any suggestions, as I love my GL wagon, and have yet to drive it!!

   

 

 

[Subruise]

the hill holder uses one front and one rear brake. if you look on the frame rail below your master cylinder youll see the contraption. It operates via a ball that rolls backward and blocks the flow until you let the clutch pedal back up (after putting clutch pedal in and stepping on the brake pedal and releasing it). maybe tap it a few times with a ball peen hammer. It can also be eliminated from the brake fluid food chain if necessary.

 

Also, the front pistons screw in, not compress w a C clamp. some rear (drum) brakes auto adjust and some adjust via the slave cylinder near the brake line. Drum brakes are dumb, and sometimes people have difficulty reassembling correctly if not familiar. 

 

the rear drums on these does about 10-15% of the braking

Edited January 1, 2015 by Subruise

[DaveT]

Model & year would help.  But if this is a GL, and inside my range of Subaru experience [86-94]  The E-brake is attached to the front brakes.

 

If it is a standard shift, it may have the Hill Holder "clutch" which is really a valve system in the brakes.

 

The E brake isn't usually strong enough to lock up the car, just make it draggy.

[LovemyGLWGN]

Oh, sorry, DaveT.  It is an 88 Loyale wagon, clutch, push button 4x, and I would tend to bet the Hill Holder is what is locking it down.  If my husband can manage to get it off the incline for me, it will drive on a flat area.  I like what Subruise said about the Hill Holder can also be eliminated from the 'food chain' if needed, because this station wagon is beautiful!!, and I would really like the Subaru guy to look it over.  I bought it from a car lot that had taken it to the auto auction, and had looked all over the country for one, then found one 18 miles from me!  

[TomRhere]

Properly adjusted, the Hill-Holder, (H-H),  works on a 3* or better nose up angle.

 

Adjusting it can be a pain for some, read that on here many times.

 

Proper clutch free-play adjustment, then H-H adjustment.

 

Clutch free-play is;

 

At the pedal 13-20mm, .51-.74 in

 

At the clutch fork, measured where the cable attaches,

3-4mm, .12-.16 in

 

Full stroke,

25.5-27mm, 1.004-1.063 in

 

FSM says that if the H-H don't hold, tighten it's cable adjustment'

if it don't release, loosen it's adjustment.

 

I recall a post from years back of Skip saying he adjusted the H-H so he could fit a dime between the spring coils on the valve, and it worked for him.

 

 

The Emergency Brake should be fully released when handle is down, and activate 3-4 clicks up.

 

If one decides to eliminate the H-H function, simply remove the cable from the clutch fork, and install a spring to pull the fork forward.

I use a throttle return spring for that.

 

I fully remove the H-H valve from the system using a T fitting to connect the brake lines.

I like to be able to allow the vehicle to roll backwards down a hill if need be, the H-H won't allow that.

[MR_Loyale]

Properly adjusted, the Hill-Holder, (H-H),  works on a 3* or better nose up angle.

 

Adjusting it can be a pain for some, read that on here many times.

 

Proper clutch free-play adjustment, then H-H adjustment.

 

Clutch free-play is;

 

At the pedal 13-20mm, .51-.74 in

 

At the clutch fork, measured where the cable attaches,

3-4mm, .12-.16 in

 

Full stroke,

25.5-27mm, 1.004-1.063 in

 

FSM says that if the H-H don't hold, tighten it's cable adjustment'

if it don't release, loosen it's adjustment.

 

I recall a post from years back of Skip saying he adjusted the H-H so he could fit a dime between the spring coils on the valve, and it worked for him.

 

 

The Emergency Brake should be fully released when handle is down, and activate 3-4 clicks up.

 

If one decides to eliminate the H-H function, simply remove the cable from the clutch fork, and install a spring to pull the fork forward.

I use a throttle return spring for that.

 

I fully remove the H-H valve from the system using a T fitting to connect the brake lines.

I like to be able to allow the vehicle to roll backwards down a hill if need be, the H-H won't allow that.

 

Just a correction. A properly adjusted hill holder does not prevent you from rolling backwards down a hill if that is your desire. Simply let up on the clutch and the hill holder (properly adjusted mind you) disengages. The properly adjusted hill holder is activated only when the clutch is depressed and then the brake is pressed and released while still holding down the clutch pedal.  Releasing the clutch disengages the properly adjusted hill holder.  I find the hill holder useful on a steep Seattle hill when the car behind is 1 inch from the bumper at the stop light. 

[ferp420]

ive had rubber break lines them selfes go bad internaly with out showing signs of beind bad on the outside they rust on the inside and the clamps that hold them in place and makes a pinch point the fluid goes in under high presure but returns under low presure and can create break drag if slightly pluged try this little test let it sit a day or 2 and dont press the break pedel see if it roles use the parking break as it is mechanicel and wont create hydrolic pressure then in a parking spot press the peddlel hard and see if it locks up if it doses its probly a plugged line

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

The only one time I had a Brake problem on my Subaru "BumbleBeast" which is an '85 EA82 GL, was done by Me when I replaced the rear shoes on the old rear Drum Brakes (Now it features rear Disc Brakes, but that's another story) because I gave too much adjust to the Shoes, and each time I used the Brakes, they accumulated pressure without completely releasing the Shoes, nor returning the all the fluid to the Master Cylinder. So one of the rear wheels stopped spinning as it should.

 

My temporary solution was to open the drain plug on that rear drum brake to release the pressure built, then drove home; next morning I removed the Drum and gave the Proper adjustment to the Shoes.

 

Never had a Brake issue again since then.

 

► Maybe your GL had the brakes serviced recently?

 

► Maybe the rear Drums' Shoes had no clearance during the adjustment?

 

Kind Regards.

[LovemyGLWGN]

Thanks, Bumble, Tom and guys..  Yes, brakes were just done, and the guy that worked on it , unfortunately, was totally lost as to what to do.  He tried to cover himself, but finally, had to call me to come and get it, and said he had tried everything he knew, and could find out.  Obviously, he didn't ask y'all! These are more than great answers:  thank you.  I have a decent understanding of how the hill holder operates, and what makes it tick.  On my '92, they just worked, and I just used them... no thought.  I lived in the mountains, then, and appreciated the hill holder for the same reason as Tom, MR_Loyale.  

 

There is a Subaru mechanic about 60 miles away, who knows these older models inside and out, I would just like to be able to get it to him.  My husband and myself are able to accomplish minor repairs with our trusty tiny wrench set, but more isn't a real option anymore.  We can do this, including loosening the HH, as long as nothing is froze up.  Are nuts left hand, right hand?  Anything else we may like to know, before we go lay in the dirt?  (On a carpet- in the cold?)

 

As soon as I can pull it out, and drive it 20 miles, will get a photo up here.  It really is exceptionally clean, except the rear carpet, where someone spilled grease of some sort.  Thanks again, Gloria

[MR_Loyale]

The hill holder cable is right on the same mechanism where the clutch cable attaches to the clutch fork. (You need to remove the spare tire to see it. You can back it out a few turns. See number 9 in the diagram below:

 

Edited January 1, 2015 by MR_Loyale

[LovemyGLWGN]

Thanks!  Tired today:  need to get back here tomorrow, G

[TomRhere]

I stand corrected on the "roll backwards" statement. Just repeated what I've seen posted on this site in the past.

 

Myself, I don't need that feature at all, so I remove it from the system. One less thing to deal with.

 

Drove a 24' box truck for some 15 years, 5-speed manual w/2-speed rear diff. Had no problem holding it from rolling backwards on hills for the most part.

 

Did roll backwards into a car once. Police cited the car driver for "failure to stop in an assured clear distance". The Officer was sitting in a parking lot and watched the driver pull right up to the rear of the truck. Told me that he knew that it was going to turn out bad for him.

[el_freddo]

Hill holder is a golden piece of kit on these old rigs.  It's only now that the likes of BMW and a few other car makers are adding this "new technology" to their vehicles.

Personally, I love my hill holder - even when offroad and you're trying to make your way back down a hill you didn't get up and have to do that dodgy brake on clutch off then quick brake back on manoeuvre.

If you're going to disconnect it there should already be a spring there to do the job.

I'm looking forward to pics - I'm sure it won't look ANYTHING like mine (or half of those on here!).  I do love a good L series though!

Cheers

Bennie

[greg454]

My hill holder would leak brake fluid when the cable actuated it. So I disconnected its cable from the clutch fork and have been running that way ever since with no problems. It doesn't leak a drop this way and if I'm on a really bad hill I can always use the hand operated emergency brake, although driving a clutch all my life that  really isn't necessary. 

 

Also, most drum brakes (I assume subarus are the same)  usually have a short shoe and a long shoe. Make sure the short shoe is towards the front and the long shoe is towards the rear of the drum or you may get the kind of symptoms you describe. 

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

My hill holder would leak brake fluid when the cable actuated it. So I disconnected its cable from the clutch fork and have been running that way ever since with no problems. It doesn't leak a drop this way and if I'm on a really bad hill I can always use the hand operated emergency brake, although driving a clutch all my life that  really isn't necessary...

 

Exactly the same happened to my Subaru "BumbleBeast"

 

I Disconnected the Cable long ago, and no more Leaking...

 

 

...Also, most drum brakes (I assume subarus are the same)  usually have a short shoe and a long shoe...

 

Nope, on these Third Gen Leone / EA82, the Drum's shoes are Equal.

 

Kind Regards.

[mickytrus]

I had a case where my return spring

rotted away......  caused a serious fight with

trying to drive.........  it was a 93.....

so I just spun the mechanism and held it in place...

I don't if I used string or   a zip tie....

till I go a new spring......(another from the graveyard)

[LovemyGLWGN]

Well, appreciate all of the help!! I have enough info to attempt to get it to a shop, even though I would not be afraid of tackling this now.  I looked at the forecast, and as we are about to be 30* for a high, I think a garage would feel nice, rather than a carpet on the cold ground.  However, I am no longer afraid of the HH, or massively confused.  

 

I believe I can get it to the shop OK, but if I simply need to remove the rear shoes, that is possible for me in order to get it in.  I drove it home from the auto auction, and it did OK.  It wasn't until I had the rear brakes done that it wouldn't come out of HH.  I will try the loosening of HH first, as that might be a simple (non-frozen) solution.  

 

If it were warmer weather, I wouldn't hesitate to do this myself now.  I sure would like to have it on the road, though, since I am driving ...(something  ) that isn't very fuel economical and I would rather have my Loyale!! Thanks, Gloria

[LovemyGLWGN]

Oh, and the diagram is worth a thousand words!  Big thanks!