alpop Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Newbie here. Picked up this 1999 Legacy L wagon with 2.2 engine and automatic transmission for my HS daughter to have AWD in the winter. I noticed a little heasitation at sale but glossed over it. Exterior and interior beautiful cond., good price. The below problems are intermittent, sometimes runs great. PO was a backyard mechanic who dropped the new (used) engine in the car which the 2x PO had burned up the old one. New engine is a phase II 2.2 from a '99, 5" spark plug tubes, all wiring harness plugs fit and are fully plugged in. The main problem is very poor acceleration below 2500 rpm, then at 2500 rpm its like you flip a switch and it takes off like a rocket. Typically you'll be trying to get it going and its lugging in that particular gear, then hits 2500 rpm and takes off in that gear briefly before shifting to the next gear and lugging below 2500, then takes off , then shifts, etc. Does it with manual shifting also. Other aberrations are at times when I turn on the cabin heating fan the engine cooling fans will turn on at the same time, and then turn off when I turn off the cabin fan. At times the idle will go up and down from 700 to 1500 and the cooling fans will go on and off in concert. Can happen even with the engine stone cold. At times the idle will be all over the place. Done a few simple things like cleaning grounding points in engine compartment, installed new grounding system, checked spark plugs (new), checked transmission oil (looks excellent and level right), latest thing was replaced the coolant temperature sensor on the advice of PO and that made no difference. CEL off and on, codes include TPS and IAC valve low voltage in circuits. Current ideas include: 1. replacing ignition wires 2. isolating knock sensor with padding (and ground) see if performance improves 3. TPS? 4. IAC valve? wouldn't explain acceleration issues 5. ECU? These Subaru sensors seem pretty darn expensive. I saw something about a TSB for this year and engine, where the knock sensor signal is mis-interpreted by the ecu and it retards the timing 10 degrees or something, fix was to get a completely different ecu. Haven't actually found the TSB. Ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in KY Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I would focus on the IAC (idle problem) and the TPS (sluggish acceleration). Have no idea what is going on with the fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forester2002s Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 A faulty Knock Sensor might give you similar behavior. Although I would expect to also see a Knock Sensor CEL come up. I've had good experience with aftermarket Knock Sensors from EBay. And some are not too expensive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 There is a group of large electrical plugs on the passenger side of the bellhousing. Unplug those, make sure all the pins are straight and clean, then plug them back in and make sure they click together. A loose connection here will cause all sorts of problems, including idle problems and the CEL codes, and can cause the fans to cycle on and off if the temp sensor signal is being interrupted. As far as the radiator Fans running when you turn the blower fan on in the car. If the mode control panel is set to Defrost, the AC compressor will engage when the fan is turned on. And anytime the AC compressor is running the radiator fans will run. When its cold out and you just need the heat on the windsheild set the mode control to the defrost/floor setting to avoid the compressor turning on. Knock sensor can cause issues on low RPM acceleration, but you should figure out the reasons for the codes you have first. The IAC valve on the 99 engines isn't the most reliable. Possible that is on its way out. TPS hardly ever fail, I would suspect a connection issue or maybe someone tampered with the adjustment. Check the connectors on the bellhousing first before playing around with the TPS or IAC. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpop Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Thanks for all the responses! I have had those connectors apart and looked closely at them, couldn't see anything problematic. Needed to unplug them to replace that coolant temperature sensor. Good call on the engine cooling fans and cabin defrost setting - I just checked (ignition on only) and it only does it when set on defrost so that makes sense. I'm used to vehicles with engine fans and fan clutches, so had no idea. So when it did this when the engine was running,and the cooling fans would cycle on and idle would up to 1500 at same time this is probably the same explanation - idle up with defrost and AC on, though 1500 does seem sort of high. So that leaves two problems, inconsistent idle which could very well be the IAC valve (I understand it can be cleaned), and terrible acceleration under 2500 rpm. The idle is not that big a deal so I will concentrate on the acceleration issue at this time. This helps me to feel that it is probably not the ECU unless its related to this TSB about knock sensor and ECU.. So with poor acceleration probably either the knock sensor or the TPS. I did check the reference voltage to the TPS and it is about 5 volts (ignition on) as expected, there is another test to look at resistance of the TPS as you slowly open the throttle which I could try to do. The darn things look really expensive, cheapest was $120 at Amazon, on up to $250 or so. So why does Subaru run coolant through these components? I did a simple test with the knock sensor to make sure the sending wire/terminal was not grounded and it was not. Might try physically removing it, leaving it plugged in, isolate it in some padding, grounding it and see if this makes a difference in performance, if so then it is either the knock sensor or the way the ECU reacts to the knock sensor. Make sense? which should I fool with first? I guess since I did have a TPS code probably that. thanks, Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I'm going with a physically cracked knock sensor in this one. The sensors can crack and not throw a code. Also a new set of plugs will help. I am assuming we have done the air filter, pcv change thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpop Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 yeah I heard those knock sensors crack pretty commonly, Forgot to say I already put in new plugs, air filter, PCV valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 If you want to check the TPS adjustment, check voltage on the center pin, key On. Throttle closed should show 0.45 - 0.55 volts. Sweep the throttle slowly and see if the voltage steadily climbs. Wide open should be about 4.5v. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Ok knock sensor then. They are cheap enough to be "oh what the hell lets change it" part and screw up any diagnostics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpop Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 I will check out the knock sensor tomorrow. looks like $50-$60. In terms of checking the voltage of TPS with ignition on and slowly opening throttle. I've seen the descriptions of back probing the wires into the plug (with paper clips?), but there sure wasn't any room for this when I looked at my connector. I guess you could do this by probing the actual TPS pins and looking at resistance, but I don't know what values are expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bratman18 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 You can get knock sensors for much cheaper on ebay, and they work just fine and last as well. I've used several with no issues. And a few for as cheap as $12. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I guess you could do this by probing the actual TPS pins and looking at resistance, but I don't know what values are expected. Checking resistance can tell you if the TPS has a "dead" spot, but you can't determine if it is adjusted correctly. The ECU has to get a signal of 0.45-0.55 Volts from the TPS at closed throttle. Sure, On paper you can determine that by using ohms law, but you need to know exactly the voltage and amperage of the circuit. And what works on paper doesn't work out perfectly in the real world. You'll be playing a guessing game trying to get the correct adjustment. There is no standard resistance for a TPS. Each one will have slightly higher or lower resistance than the last. (which is why they make them adjustable) The ECU doesn't care about the resistance of the part, it only cares about how much voltage signal it gets back from it. If the plug is difficult to get to, unplug it so you can back-probe it, bend the paper clip over in a U or V shape and plug it back in. Just make sure the paper clip doesn't touch anything metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xdeadeye1 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 following along... I hope I never have to deal with this stuff.. I don't understand electrical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpop Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 ok I get the explanation on the TPS. However, I don't see how to do the back probing with a paper clip (when its all plugged in) because there is absolutely no room to shove the clip in there and I'm afraid you would ruin something if you tried. Are they really adjustable on the "99? I thought that was on earlier models and mine doesn't appear to have any play in the mounting to turn it. I'll check the knock sensor first. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Here's a good photo of how to stick the paper clip in. The wire has a silicone boot around to to keep out water and dirt. Feed the clip between the boot and the wire, it should slide in about 1/2". http://www.enduringautomotive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/back-probed-sensor.jpg The TPS should have slotted holes for the mounting screws. If they are not slotted and the voltage from the sensor is off with the throttle closed, you may be able to adjust the throttle stop screw enough to get it into the correct range. If not, replacement may be your only option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpop Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 Ok great pic, thanks! Yes, I see the TPS holes are slotted for adjustment, I hadn't noticed previously. Hopefully I won't have to fool with it, I just pulled out the knock sensor and it has several cracks in it, vertical and horizontal. I'll look around locally here for a new one at a reasonable price tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpop Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 Replaced the cracked knock sensor with a $15 Aisin one (Amazon) and took it out. Drove 3 miles to town for a meeting and it ran flawlessly, drove the three miles back and it ran flawlessly, then I thought I'd take it out on the nearby country road just to make sure - and it started acting out again. No CEL yet. I had disconnected both battery terminals while replacing the Knock sensor, as I did for the coolant temp sensor, and both times it ran great for a little while afterwards - then Hmmmm- Anyways on to the TPS, after all I did have a TPS code a few weeks ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureSubaru Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Plug wires. This is exactly the behavior you expect from failing plug wires. Bogs down under 2500-3000 RPM and then acts like nothing is wrong. If you can tell that it's worse on rainy/humid days is also a dead giveaway. Subaru or NGK are best but cheapo set should fix it but not last as long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpop Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 Hmm, I'll check the resistance on them, I think I read they should be all pretty similar 8000 - 16000 ohms, if greater than 20k replace. Sound right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Just replace them as you cant tell the condition of the silicon insulator. Also you would need a meg meter to do it right. How does this do on damp mornings? What is the condition of the spark plug boots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpop Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 The outward appearance of boots and such is fine. Haven't driven it enough to know about damp mornings. However it didn't do it when I test drove it in December, then when I came back to pick it up a few days later he had just power washed the engine - It was all wet in there, then It did it bad all 85 miles home. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I think we have our culprit. I wont suggest a spray bottle to a running engine of water unless it is above freezing there. But that in the early evening would be how you check for sparklies (high voltage leaks) normally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpop Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 So I put new wires on this morning (Import Direct supposedly re-boxed OE), the resistance on the old ones was 10-12k and new ones were 6-7K, so the ones on there were definitely not new. I disconnected the battery again while doing it. Drove for about 20 minutes to a nearby town and it ran/drove beautifully, stopped and turned around and it started bogging down again until 2500 rpm. Only thing is I swear its not as bad as it was. Once again it didn't start doing it until 5-10 minutes after the car was fully warmed up - after I had previously disconnected the battery. Left it all day (battery connected) and when I drove it home it started doing it immediately (cold engine), but once again it didn't seem as bad. Could it be something with the ignition, and the new wires alleviated the problem a little? Or is the fuel injector cleaner I dumped in with this tank of gas starting to work a little? Is the ecu screwing something up and when I reset things (battery disconnect) it takes longer to screw things up again? Still need to run that TPS test- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Hrmm its a start. You only need to unplug the ECU for a few minutes for a reset, and in all honesty its not necessary unless you have codes. I wonder... If you let the car idle for 15 minutes to warm up and you drive off does it stil bog down? Has anyone put a vacuum gauge on this car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpop Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 Alright I think I have a diagnosis. I finally got a chance to backprobe the TPS (really not that difficult), Su bah roo'n said it should start at 0.45-0.55 throttle closed, then as depress pedal should gradually increase evenly to 4.5-5.5 (?) WOT. Here is what I see: starts at 0.58 - throttle closed increases gradually to about 3.0 then goes blank - no signal continue depressing further and it picks up at about 3.4 and continues to 4.2 tops at WOT so looks like it starts high and ends low with a pretty big dead spot from 3.0=3.4 v. (sounds like my workout) Also there is an engine buzzing noise with ignition on as I do this, is this normal? Amazon has the exact TPS that is in there (I assume its OE), Beck Arnley 158-0555 for $116.00, best price that I have found. Yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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