pianodirt Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Hello USMB! I have been long gone from this forum. I was active 2003-2006 when I had an '87 GL hatchback. One of the great suggestions I got from here was the book, "How to Keep Your Subaru Alive", the one with the Star Trek theme. I loved that book. It taught me some basics how automobiles work as well as great detailed repair/maintenence instructions. Written for a real person, not like the Hayne's manuals. I don't think I still have it, though. I used the book one time to attempt replace my brake pads (I had never done this before) and when I got to be able to see the pads, they were plenty good, so I skipped it. I did a forum search before posting and did find a couple of good tips (such as a sequence to flushing the brake lines), but not something as basic as what I'm writing about. I've never replaced brakes before on any car and am looking for some direction. Any great detailed instructions (especially specific to Subaru) available online on how to replace brakes? Or would the "Keep Your Subaru Alive" still be relevant to a 2001 Forester, if I can get my hands on a copy again? I have a friend who is going to help me with the brake job (teach me how to do it), but I would like to learn as much about it as I can before hand. As far as I understand, replacing brakes is fairly universal from vehicle to vehicle, but would love to know if there are any things specific to a 2001 Forester I should know. We took the Forester to a tire place (the big one named LS) and they said it needed the rear calipers and rotors in addition to pads. They wanted almost $500 to do so, which is not uncommon to my past experience, but I'd like to learn how to do it myself, as well as save a few $$. Went to a parts store and they suggested "loaded" calipers, that already have the pads mounted on them. A few other questions: * Any pro/con of the loaded calipers vs. unloaded? * Do rotors, calipers and pads need to be matched by manufacturer/brand? Or is it okay to mix and match based upon price? * The array of differently priced rotors, calipers and pads was dizzying on one online retailer. Are there any general suggestions for these parts...as in, "cheaper rotors are just as good as the expensive ones, but don't skimp on calipers or pads"? * If I am replacing rotors, calipers and pads, will I need to bleed the brake lines? It seems this is one of the more complicated things to do, which I'm willing to learn, but if I don't have to do it, that would be great. Brakes are not mushy presently. * Special tools required? I have some basic tools and I think I still have that 17mm or 19mm socket that was required to get the wheel hub off of my '87 GL. Thanks for your patience with these rookie questions and I thank you in advance of anything you can point me to. pd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthguy Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I've replaced a few calipers on different cars. All pretty easy. Down the line: - Loaded or unloaded are fine, just depends on price and deals (sales, online coupons, etc.) Last pair on the fronts of my 95 LS I bought the lower Advanced Auto calipers, but ended up returning them for some loaded Beck Arnley's because of some issues with how the pads fit into the AA remans ("remanufactured") - Rotors, pads, calipers do not need to be matched by manufacturer. - I paid a few bucks more for the B/A calipers, but with a coupon, it wasn't too much more. I don't think there was a huge difference between them. I wouldn't buy the cheapest/cheap rotors. Buy at least mid or higher grade. Warping cheap new rotors would be annoying. I'm sure there are lots of opinions about what pads to get (ceramic vs. semi metallic, etc.). I've had cheap ones and middle and they've all worked decent for me (much better than the old pads that were really worn out!). Middle of the road is good. -If you replace the calipers, you'll need to bleed the lines some since there will be some air in the system near the new calipers. When I've done it, I just opened the bleed screw on the newly installed caliper and pumped some, then added more to the master reservoir, repeat until no air bubbles are coming out. I'm sure you can find some info about bleeding on here. -No special tools required. The socket to remove your old hub had to bigger than a 17 or 19 mm (you'll likely need up through 17 or 19 mm on your brakes). Hub should be something big like 30-32mm range. Pick up a container of antiseize (like this or similar) and two cans of brake cleaner (cheap stuff works just fine) and some of those heavier blue paper towels. Does't hurt to have a flare nut wrench for the brake lines/bleeder valve screw (but a regular combo wrench can work too...). I haven't worked on any Foresters, but I wouldn't think there is anything special about the brakes compared to Legacys. Wrench on! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1982gl4 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) First off make sure you need calipers, I know a lot of people that will up sell these. Make sure your pistons go back with ease, and your slid pins are free (these are the two pins each caliper slides on) these need to be free, and lubed in order for the brakes to work correctly. If your piston in the caliper are stuck, it needs to be replaced. Usually the rotor will be blue in color and may have some unusual rust if this is this case, and you will smell burning or a hot smell walking around the car after driving (but not always). If the slid pins are stuck you will see odd pad wear (one pad will be worn more than another, or the pad will be worn more on the top or bottom) If the slid pins are stuck you can usually free them up, but not always. Up here in the salt belt I have to use a torch and heat them when they are rusted stuck. Also if you do use your old calipers make sure the pads move freely and are not stuck in the bracket they need to move freely in order to last as long as possible. * Any pro/con of the loaded calipers vs. unloaded? I usually only use loaded calipers if I need both sides, Otherwise you are left over with half a set of pads, that you may use someday... Also the loaded calipers usually come with the cheapest brake pads known to man. * Do rotors, calipers and pads need to be matched by manufacturer/brand? Or is it okay to mix and match based upon price? I miss match rotors, pads, and calipers all the time I can't say I've had an issue before. Usually I get parts that match price wise, good rotors with good pads. Usually I don't use cheep pads as they tend to be priced that way for a reason but I will use cheeper rotors, and pads depending on what the customer wants. Up here everything tends to rust out before it wears out anyway. * The array of differently priced rotors, calipers and pads was dizzying on one online retailer. Are there any general suggestions for these parts...as in, "cheaper rotors are just as good as the expensive ones, but don't skimp on calipers or pads"? This is up to you and how much you want to spend. There are indeed a lot of options. A lot of the time I find myself using centric parts as that's whats available, that or the parts store's house brand if I want to go cheeper. I tend to get at least mid grade pads because they last a bit longer and I don't like a ton of dust on my wheels... * If I am replacing rotors, calipers and pads, will I need to bleed the brake lines? It seems this is one of the more complicated things to do, which I'm willing to learn, but if I don't have to do it, that would be great. Brakes are not mushy presently. You will only need to bleed brakes if you replace the calipers. It helps to have a second person. Have them pump the brake a few times and then hold down the peddle. As they are holding it down you will crack the bleeder open, and let air along with some fluid out. Do this until you get just fluid and no air. * Special tools required? I have some basic tools and I think I still have that 17mm or 19mm socket that was required to get the wheel hub off of my '87 GL. All you should need is a metric set of sockets to change the calipers, or replace the pads. The lug nuts will be 19mm unless they have been changed for aftermarket ones. The bracket bolts to the hub should be 14mm, and I think the slid pin bolts are 12mm, but they also may be 14mm. If you are changing the calipers I would get a tool made to gently pinch off the brake hose so it doesn't drip on you while you change it. They make a special pair of pliers for this (Not vise grips this can damage the brake hose!) If you do end up using your old calipers you will need something to push the pistons back, a pair of channel locks will work. I've heard people say to open the bleeder while you push the pistons back to prevent the old brake fluid from going back into the abs pump. Up here that is risky as most bleeder screws are so rusty they will break off if you even look at them the wrong way. As said above pick up some antisieze and put it on the slide pins. I put it on the edges of the pads that contact the caliper brackets as well to keep them sliding over time, but again we have a lot of salt and rust up here. You may also need a hammer to remove the rotor, they can get pretty stuck to the hubs. Depending on how tight your e-brake is adjusted you may have to adjust it down some to get the rotors off. Also MAKE SURE THE E-BRAKE IS OFF you can pound on a rotor all day with it on and they will not come off. Edited January 31, 2015 by 1982gl4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianodirt Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) I've replaced a few calipers on different cars. All pretty easy. Down the line: - Loaded or unloaded are fine, just depends on price and deals (sales, online coupons, etc.) Last pair on the fronts of my 95 LS I bought the lower Advanced Auto calipers, but ended up returning them for some loaded Beck Arnley's because of some issues with how the pads fit into the AA remans ("remanufactured") - Rotors, pads, calipers do not need to be matched by manufacturer. - I paid a few bucks more for the B/A calipers, but with a coupon, it wasn't too much more. I don't think there was a huge difference between them. I wouldn't buy the cheapest/cheap rotors. Buy at least mid or higher grade. Warping cheap new rotors would be annoying. I'm sure there are lots of opinions about what pads to get (ceramic vs. semi metallic, etc.). I've had cheap ones and middle and they've all worked decent for me (much better than the old pads that were really worn out!). Middle of the road is good. -If you replace the calipers, you'll need to bleed the lines some since there will be some air in the system near the new calipers. When I've done it, I just opened the bleed screw on the newly installed caliper and pumped some, then added more to the master reservoir, repeat until no air bubbles are coming out. I'm sure you can find some info about bleeding on here. -No special tools required. The socket to remove your old hub had to bigger than a 17 or 19 mm (you'll likely need up through 17 or 19 mm on your brakes). Hub should be something big like 30-32mm range. Pick up a container of antiseize (like this or similar) and two cans of brake cleaner (cheap stuff works just fine) and some of those heavier blue paper towels. Does't hurt to have a flare nut wrench for the brake lines/bleeder valve screw (but a regular combo wrench can work too...). I haven't worked on any Foresters, but I wouldn't think there is anything special about the brakes compared to Legacys. Wrench on! Thank you! This is very helpful. Thanks to "suberdave" on this forum, I found a PDF version of "How to Keep Your Subaru Alive". Granted, that book is for 1988 and older Soobs. In the brake section, he writes about needing a 36mm (I mistakenly wrote 19mm before) to remove the axle nut. It sounds like that removing an axle nut isn't necessary on a relatively more modern Soob? We have two parts stores in our small town. Napa and Federated. Napa tends to be rather expensive for parts (paid almost $200 for a new battery for my diesel Jetta last year) and the battery I just bought from Federated for the Forester is significantly smaller than the one that it replaced. I've never heard of Federated stores before, and while their prices are low, I wonder if they're just super cheap in quality. The quote (for Federated branded) brakes was $79/ea per loaded caliper and $25/ea per rotor. Having never bought brake parts before, I don't know what's relative, but looking online, I see rotors that go for three times that amount. Haven't received a quote yet from Napa. Another thought...I've never bought auto parts online that had a core deposit. The idea of having to ship back parts and wait for them to process the refund doesn't appeal to me at first. I suppose if the price was right, then it might be worth it. One site said it could take up to 30 days for the refund to happen, after the mfr had okayed the core return. What has your experience been with online parts retailers and core deposit refunds? Edited January 31, 2015 by pianodirt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianodirt Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 First off make sure you need calipers, I know a lot of people that will up sell these. Make sure your pistons go back with ease, and your slid pins are free (these are the two pins each caliper slides on) these need to be free, and lubed in order for the brakes to work correctly. If your piston in the caliper are stuck, it needs to be replaced. Usually the rotor will be blue in color and may have some unusual rust if this is this case, and you will smell burning or a hot smell walking around the car after driving (but not always). If the slid pins are stuck you will see odd pad wear (one pad will be worn more than another, or the pad will be worn more on the top or bottom) If the slid pins are stuck you can usually free them up, but not always. Up here in the salt belt I have to use a torch and heat them when they are rusted stuck. Also if you do use your old calipers make sure the pads move freely and are not stuck in the bracket they need to move freely in order to last as long as possible. Thank you a ton, this is all very helpful! I will jack up the car tomorrow and see if I can get a good look at the calipers and see if they are free on the pins as you suggested. Haven't smelled any hot smells, but it is winter and cold here. There has been a mild grinding noise from the rear of the car when in motion, without any pressure on the brake pedal, a sound that stops when pressure is applied. The tech at the tire shop said there was no pad left. This was his answer to why the grinding noise would be there without any brake pedal pressure, which doesn't really make sense to me. I hope I don't have to replace the calipers mainly because I'd rather not have to deal with bleeding the lines, if I don't have to. * Any pro/con of the loaded calipers vs. unloaded? I usually only use loaded calipers if I need both sides, Otherwise you are left over with half a set of pads, that you may use someday... Also the loaded calipers usually come with the cheapest brake pads known to man. Good tip on the cheap pads on the loaded calipers, thanks. * The array of differently priced rotors, calipers and pads was dizzying on one online retailer. Are there any general suggestions for these parts...as in, "cheaper rotors are just as good as the expensive ones, but don't skimp on calipers or pads"? This is up to you and how much you want to spend. There are indeed a lot of options. A lot of the time I find myself using centric parts as that's whats available, that or the parts store's house brand if I want to go cheeper. I tend to get at least mid grade pads because they last a bit longer and I don't like a ton of dust on my wheels... Thank you again, this is all very helpful. My understanding is the longer lasting pads are those with asbestos in them.This is for my wife's car and she's not too keen on having asbestos dust flying off her car if there's an alternative. How can I tell from a product description if a pad has asbestos in it or not? * Special tools required? I have some basic tools and I think I still have that 17mm or 19mm socket that was required to get the wheel hub off of my '87 GL. All you should need is a metric set of sockets to change the calipers, or replace the pads. The lug nuts will be 19mm unless they have been changed for aftermarket ones. The bracket bolts to the hub should be 14mm, and I think the slid pin bolts are 12mm, but they also may be 14mm. If you are changing the calipers I would get a tool made to gently pinch off the brake hose so it doesn't drip on you while you change it. They make a special pair of pliers for this (Not vise grips this can damage the brake hose!) If you do end up using your old calipers you will need something to push the pistons back, a pair of channel locks will work. I've heard people say to open the bleeder while you push the pistons back to prevent the old brake fluid from going back into the abs pump. Up here that is risky as most bleeder screws are so rusty they will break off if you even look at them the wrong way. As said above pick up some antisieze and put it on the slide pins. I put it on the edges of the pads that contact the caliper brackets as well to keep them sliding over time, but again we have a lot of salt and rust up here. You may also need a hammer to remove the rotor, they can get pretty stuck to the hubs. Depending on how tight your e-brake is adjusted you may have to adjust it down some to get the rotors off. Also MAKE SURE THE E-BRAKE IS OFF you can pound on a rotor all day with it on and they will not come off. LOL, thanks for the e-brake tip, I sure do appreciate learning from your experience! I've had a few of those. So if the bleeder screws are likely to break off, how does one bleed the brakes? We do have some salt around here, but I don't think it's as bad as you get. I'm in a small town in Eastern WA, not Seattle like my profile says (need to change that). The tips on tools required is really helpful. I can't tell you how many various home/auto repairs that should've taken 15 minutes turned into 2 day quests because I didn't have the right tool and either broke something or made multiple trips for the right tools! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianodirt Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 A couple more questions: For brake pads, do they all come with shims? If not, do I need to buy shims? Or if not using shims, would one use anti-sieze on the back side of the pads instead? Or does either of those not matter all that much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1982gl4 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) pianodirt, on 31 Jan 2015 - 03:28, said: LOL, thanks for the e-brake tip, I sure do appreciate learning from your experience! I've had a few of those. So if the bleeder screws are likely to break off, how does one bleed the brakes? We do have some salt around here, but I don't think it's as bad as you get. I'm in a small town in Eastern WA, not Seattle like my profile says (need to change that). The tips on tools required is really helpful. I can't tell you how many various home/auto repairs that should've taken 15 minutes turned into 2 day quests because I didn't have the right tool and either broke something or made multiple trips for the right tools! On your side of the country they should come out fine (I buy most of my cars out your way because they are so rust free!) It was just a general warning as it does happen. If you aren't changing the calipers you shouldn't have to bleed them. If you are changing them the new calipers will come with new bleeders and they will come out totally fine. Some pad sets will come with new shims, others do not. I try to clean up the stock ones a lot of the time and reuse them because they tend to fit a bit better, but aftermarket ones will work fine if yours are worn/rusted/broken. I usually put a little anti-seize between the pads and shims just to keep everything moving over time. New brake products won't have asbestos in them, it was banned sometimes in the early late 80's 90's I think. Cheeper pads tend to leave more dust as the wear, better quality ones do not. If your pad is gone like the tech said, you probably will need a caliper. If the pad is missing and the piston of the caliper is making contact with the rotor, just replace the caliper as it will wear down the piston, and the are likely to leak after. If the pad is still there, even just the metal back of it, your caliper could be ok as long as the piston goes back as i stated above. Edited January 31, 2015 by 1982gl4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthguy Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 A couple more questions: For brake pads, do they all come with shims? If not, do I need to buy shims? Or if not using shims, would one use anti-sieze on the back side of the pads instead? Or does either of those not matter all that much? I've never added shims on the back. Pads come with a very thin plate usually (not sure I'd call it a shim, but it is already on there) Definitely antiseize any contact point on the pad (the two ends that slide along the caliper body and on the back where the piston hits). Just be careful not to get any antiseize on the pad itself (slippery compounds tend to hinder breaking ya know!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianodirt Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 On your side of the country they should come out fine (I buy most of my cars out your way because they are so rust free!) It was just a general warning as it does happen. If you aren't changing the calipers you shouldn't have to bleed them. If you are changing them the new calipers will come with new bleeders and they will come out totally fine. Some pad sets will come with new shims, others do not. I try to clean up the stock ones a lot of the time and reuse them because they tend to fit a bit better, but aftermarket ones will work fine if yours are worn/rusted/broken. I usually put a little anti-seize between the pads and shims just to keep everything moving over time. New brake products won't have asbestos in them, it was banned sometimes in the early late 80's 90's I think. Cheeper pads tend to leave more dust as the wear, better quality ones do not. If your pad is gone like the tech said, you probably will need a caliper. If the pad is missing and the piston of the caliper is making contact with the rotor, just replace the caliper as it will wear down the piston, and the are likely to leak after. If the pad is still there, even just the metal back of it, your caliper could be ok as long as the piston goes back as i stated above. I just watched a ton of youtube videos on brakes and feel confident enough to take it all apart and see for myself what is really going on. The tech didn't say the pad was gone, he just said it was metal on metal. We had taken the car to a (more trusted) tire/brake shop Spring of 2014 and they said the pads had 40% wear left. Haven't driven the car much in the last 9 months, so I find it hard to believe it's truly metal on metal already. I also see that the shop we took it to the other day massively inflates their prices...$220 for rotors and loaded calipers from the parts store vs $325 (labor was extra) for the tire shop...exact same part numbers. I can understand shops needing to inflate prices a bit...but 67% seems a bit much to me. When you say "...as long as the piston goes back...", what does this mean? Do you mean to make sure they will go back as in when you compress them (I think the Forester has dual pistons) before putting it all back together? Or do you mean go back as in the caliper isn't seized to the disc? Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianodirt Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 I've never added shims on the back. Pads come with a very thin plate usually (not sure I'd call it a shim, but it is already on there) Definitely antiseize any contact point on the pad (the two ends that slide along the caliper body and on the back where the piston hits). Just be careful not to get any antiseize on the pad itself (slippery compounds tend to hinder breaking ya know!). Again, very helpful. I've viewed several you tube videos on brakes and while I am gleaming some basics, it seems every guy has a slightly different preference for some things, or calling different parts the same thing. Took me a while to figure out that "rotor" and "disc" are the same thing. One guy called shims as very thin metal plates on the back side of the pads, the side facing the caliper. Another guy (an actual mechanic) called the shims as small irregular thin metal bracket things that go between the caliper and the ends of the pads. Sounds like you refer to shims as the same latter definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith3267 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) 2001 probably does not need new calipers. You don't want to change these if you don't have to. If you replace them, then you have to bleed all the air out of the lines that will get in there. Also the banjo bolt has to be torqued or it can leak. The caliper pins need to be torqued as well but it isn't quite as critical. I've done brakes for 50 years now, but have not done them on a Subaru yet. They are all pretty much the same, but there are a few differences. For example, it was mentioned about getting the rear rotors off if the parking brake is set. That type of rotor was used on early 4 wheel disc brakes but I don't know if Subaru still used them in 2001. The newer type is more complicated to deal with, but do make sure the parking brake is off before you start. If you have ABS, you do need to open the bleed screws when you back off the caliper piston. The front caliper pistons can be pushed back in with a set of 16" channel locks or water pump pliers. One trick I do is to open to first attach a length of 1/8" clear vinyl tubing available from the pet department at Walmart. Its cheap, about $3 for 25'. I cut a piece about 3' long, slip it over the bleed screw nipple, then thread it up over a nearby component and then down to a container. Its important that it loops upward first for at least 2" so that air cannot be sucked back into the caliper. Verify that the Master cylinder is full and then with the vinyl tube in place, crack open the bleed valve. Brake fluid will start to flow into the tube. Just open the bleed screw about a half turn, then pull on the caliper. As you pull on the caliper the outer pad will start to pull away from the rotor. Keep pulling on the caliper until the piston is compressed as far as it will go. If the caliper receeds properly, then that means the pins are free. You can use a large screwdriver to assist in opening up the caliper as yo are going to replace the pads anyway. Note, if you don't have ABS, you do not need to open the bleed valve, but also do not add any brake fluid to the master cylinder as the brake fluid in the caliper will backflow into the master cylinder and it will need somewhere to go. If the rear brakes are the drum in rotor type, you can do the same thing as the fronts, but if it is the newer type, do not do that. You have to remove the caliper, remove the pads and then turn the piston to get it to go back into the cylinder. Maybe you saw that on the You Tube video. Weather you use shims or not depends on the type of pads you buy. My personal preference is Wagner Thermoquiet OEM ceramic pads. Raybestoes is my second choice. When you consider the cost difference between top of the line pads and cheap ones, and the frequency of pad replacement, to me it is a no brainer, get the top of the line. I do not like any of the current house brand ceramic pads. If you do not have ABS and ultra high performance tires, then avoid any high performance pads. I made that mistake once, the brakes were so touchy that barley touching them would lock them up. It became a nightmare to stop in the rain even with my high performance touring tires. That was on my Saturn, the OEM brakes went 140k, the high performance brakes lasted 35k. I do prefer ceramic pads though just because less dust and longer pad and rotor life. If your rotors still are above the minimum thickness, I would reuse them. If you don't have a micrometer to measure them, you can use a straight edge laid from the inner radius to the outer radius of the wear area so that it bridges the lip on each end and slip a feeler gauge between the straight edge and the wear area of the rotor. The rotor should be stamped with the nominal thickness and the minimum. If the thickest feeler gauge that fits the gap is less than half the distance than the difference between nominal and minimum, you are good to go. Pads like the Wagner are already coated and you don't use any shims or anti squeal compound. If you buy a brand that is not precoated, then use either shims or the anti squeal compound, or both. I use both in those cases because I don't like noisy brakes. You can also use Molycoat 77 grease instead of the compound, but do not use any other type of grease, it can catch fire. Before you reinstall the calipers, grease the pins with a synthetic or silicone grease. Unless you change the rotors, you should not remove the caliper bracket, just the calipers. Some caliper designs allow you to only remove only one pin and then awing the caliper up using the other pin as a hinge. If the Subaru allows this, when you get done, still remove that pin and lubricate it. Last, if you did not get any air into the brake lines, calipers or the master cylinder, then you do not need to bleed the brakes, but I would strongly recommend that you gravity flush the brake system. Put a length of the clear vinyl hose on each bleeder valve. Suck out all the old brake fluid from the master cylinder reservoir with a baster or something. Refill with fresh brake fluid, then open the bleed valves and let gravity drain the old fluid out as it pulls in fresh. Watch the master cylinder very closely and do not let it go dry. Open as many bleed valves as you want as long as you can keep the master cylinder full. I usually do two at a time, the rears first. I'm too old to keep up with all four at once, but some people can. More cautious people will only do one at a time, but it take longer. You can see when fresh fluid reaches the clear vinyl tubes, when it does, close that bleed screw. If you let the brake fluid in the master cylinder get empty, then you have to bleed the whole system and that will require a second person and much more time. If you have ABS, then you will need to find out the special precautions for bleeding so you don't damage the AbS pump, but a gravity flush will not hurt it. If you need new rotors, get good ones as well. Cheap rotors just aren't worth the trouble. Edited January 31, 2015 by keith3267 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianodirt Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 2001 probably does not need new calipers. You don't want to change these if you don't have to. If you replace them, then you have to bleed all the air out of the lines that will get in there. Also the banjo bolt has to be torqued or it can leak. The caliper pins need to be torqued as well but it isn't quite as critical. I've done brakes for 50 years now, but have not done them on a Subaru yet. They are all pretty much the same, but there are a few differences. For example, it was mentioned about getting the rear rotors off if the parking brake is set. That type of rotor was used on early 4 wheel disc brakes but I don't know if Subaru still used them in 2001. The newer type is more complicated to deal with, but do make sure the parking brake is off before you start. If you have ABS, you do need to open the bleed screws when you back off the caliper piston. The front caliper pistons can be pushed back in with a set of 16" channel locks or water pump pliers. One trick I do is to open to first attach a length of 1/8" clear vinyl tubing available from the pet department at Walmart. Its cheap, about $3 for 25'. I cut a piece about 3' long, slip it over the bleed screw nipple, then thread it up over a nearby component and then down to a container. Its important that it loops upward first for at least 2" so that air cannot be sucked back into the caliper.... Wow, you guys are all great...very helpful. Keith, you're the first to suggest the ABS tip of threading up the vinyl tubing a couple inches while bleeding. Thanks. From what I can tell (another rookie question) is if I only replace the calipers/rotors/pads on the rear of the car, then do I have to bleed all four brakes (in proper sequence)? From what I've read, this is a yes. The budget is tight right now and I was hoping to not have to buy another set of jack stands, because I was hoping to bleed the back brakes first and then the front (moving the jack stands back to front), but because of the diagonal sequence required, I'll have to have all four points jacked up. I'll probably just end up getting another set of stands, nonetheless. I will probably just skip the gravity bleed method, because never having done this before, I don't know the signs of knowing whether or not I got any air in the system. I will bleed normal and perhaps next time will try a gravity bleed. We're getting loaded Raybestos calipers (about $79 ea) and Raybestos rotors (about $25/ea). Seems like a reasonable price for our needs and seems to be a reputable brand. I bought some Raybestos semi-metallic/ceramic combo pads for $47 (probably better pads than what are in the loaded calipers) but I am going to return those and just do the whole thing. I've copied your notes down (along with upnorthguy's and 1982gl4's) to print out and refer to while I do this. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianodirt Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 One more question before the game starts... Two of you suggested using anti-seize on the caliper slide pins. It's probably a moot point for this brake job (because I am replacing the calipers), but I have read others claim to use nothing but silcone grease for the pins. Has to do with the rubber bushings that can be corroded with other greases, petroluem and synthetic alike. I take it, none of you have had problems as such using anti-seize for the pins? I got a bottle of the Permatex stuff that upnorthguy recommended, which is a petroluem/synthetic blend. If I can have a bottle of goop good for more than one thing, all the better, IMO. Can't find the silicone grease online for less thant $25/bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith3267 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) Do not use anti-seize on the caliper pins, use a synthetic or silicone grease. You can buy the silicone grease packs at most parts stores for about a buck each, you'll need two packs. Where you use the anti-seize is on the "hardware". This is where the ends of the pads run in a groove in the caliper bracket, not in the caliper itself. I usually just replace the hardware, which are the SS clips at each end of the caliper bracket so make sure the pads can move freely when needed. I coat the clips on the inside with the anti-seize. Once you open the system, you have to bleed all four wheels, starting at the back. You will often see advice giving a specific order RR, LR, RF, LF, but that comes from the old days when there was a single master cylinder that fed all four brakes. Now with the diagonal braking system, it only matters that you do the rears first, then the fronts. If you have a helper, have them stand over the master cylinder and keep it full while you have the system open (calipers off). When you install the new calipers, open the bleed screw first and put the tube on as I described before hooking up the brake hose. This will help to keep air from getting into the lines as brake fluid will be constantly draining down. As soon a clear brake fluid fills the first part of the clear tubing with no air bubbles, you can close the bleed screw. Don't try to temporarily block the open end of the brake hose. It is best to spend a minute or two carefully planning each move so that the time from removing the brake hose from the old caliper to installing it on the new one is minimized. Generally, I crack (slightly loosen), then retighten the banjo bolt first, but not too tight. Then I remove the caliper from the bracket and either let it hang from the hose (no one else will let a caliper hang from the hose but I do, but not for long) or use a piece of wire to suspend it from the frame or suspension component. Then mount the new caliper on the bracket. Open the bleed screw and attach a piece of vinyl tubing threaded over a higher point as described. Make sure the MC is full, then with the new banjo bolt and new washers ready at hand (laid out in a convenient place), disconnect the hose form the old caliper and install it in the new one with the new washers and banjo bolt. If the caliper did not come with a new banjo bolt, you can use the old one but you have to have new washers. You want to crack that banjo bolt at the start because it can be really difficult to crack it when the caliper is not secured in place. Be sure to use a torque wrench on the banjo bolt, it can be easily over tightened and leak. Edit: If you don't have a torque wrench, then tighten the banjo bolt finger tight, then 1/8 to 3/16 turn more with a wrench. Use a small wrench so you don't overdo it. You can use one flat or point of the bolt as a guide. Edited February 3, 2015 by keith3267 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith3267 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) One more note, buy one of those rectangular pans, about 2x3' that people use under their oil pans when they do an oil change. Believe me, if you drop something, you will be glad you have that pan under that wheel/brake. I keep two of those myself. Edited February 3, 2015 by keith3267 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianodirt Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Do not use anti-seize on the caliper pins, use a synthetic or silicone grease. You can buy the silicone grease packs at most parts stores for about a buck each, you'll need two packs. Where you use the anti-seize is on the "hardware". This is where the ends of the pads run in a groove in the caliper bracket, not in the caliper itself. I usually just replace the hardware, which are the SS clips at each end of the caliper bracket so make sure the pads can move freely when needed. I coat the clips on the inside with the anti-seize. Once you open the system, you have to bleed all four wheels, starting at the back. You will often see advice giving a specific order RR, LR, RF, LF, but that comes from the old days when there was a single master cylinder that fed all four brakes. Now with the diagonal braking system, it only matters that you do the rears first, then the fronts. If you have a helper, have them stand over the master cylinder and keep it full while you have the system open (calipers off). When you install the new calipers, open the bleed screw first and put the tube on as I described before hooking up the brake hose. This will help to keep air from getting into the lines as brake fluid will be constantly draining down. As soon a clear brake fluid fills the first part of the clear tubing with no air bubbles, you can close the bleed screw. Don't try to temporarily block the open end of the brake hose. It is best to spend a minute or two carefully planning each move so that the time from removing the brake hose from the old caliper to installing it on the new one is minimized. Generally, I crack (slightly loosen), then retighten the banjo bolt first, but not too tight. Then I remove the caliper from the bracket and either let it hang from the hose (no one else will let a caliper hang from the hose but I do, but not for long) or use a piece of wire to suspend it from the frame or suspension component. Then mount the new caliper on the bracket. Open the bleed screw and attach a piece of vinyl tubing threaded over a higher point as described. Make sure the MC is full, then with the new banjo bolt and new washers ready at hand (laid out in a convenient place), disconnect the hose form the old caliper and install it in the new one with the new washers and banjo bolt. If the caliper did not come with a new banjo bolt, you can use the old one but you have to have new washers. You want to crack that banjo bolt at the start because it can be really difficult to crack it when the caliper is not secured in place. Be sure to use a torque wrench on the banjo bolt, it can be easily over tightened and leak. Edit: If you don't have a torque wrench, then tighten the banjo bolt finger tight, then 1/8 to 3/16 turn more with a wrench. Use a small wrench so you don't overdo it. You can use one flat or point of the bolt as a guide. Thanks again, I really appreciate it. I did use a cheap plastic washbin under the working brake, which was helpful for catching things and dripping brake fluid. Unfortunately, I somehow missed printing your instructions out (I had some other ones), but I did most of it the way you described. A couple things I did different and was wondering if I messed something up and/or should re-do something. Brakes are working great, BTW. After installing the new caliper and reattaching the brake line/banjo bolt, I didn't open the bleed valve with a piece of vinyl tubing like you suggested. I just removed the hose clamp from the brake line after re-attaching. What I did do, once I replaced the caliper on the opposite side, was to bleed the system RF>LR>LF>RR diagonal sequence, using a piece of tubing in a jar of brake fluid. I was unable to turkey baster the old brake fluid out of the master cylinder (I would have needed a syringe), so I just put new fluid in and kept it topped up after each brake bleed. It never did run clear after 6-7 pumps on each brake, but it ran more clear than the first fluid that came out did (and no bubbles), so I called it good. From your instructions, I didn't do this quite right and it's possible I may have introduced dirt or air into the ABS system? If so, would flushing the brake lines again using your tubing-looped-up-2-inches method fix that? I was watching the fluid and there was very little bubbles and there was such little back flush that I think it was pointless to have the tubing in a jar with brake fluid (to eliminate air getting sucked into the system). I know you didn't suggest doing it that way and I got those instructions from a couple different youtube videos on brakes. Also a tip I learned I think also on youtube. I don't know if this is common or specific to Subarus: To remove a stuck rotor, place a 12mm bolt (I used one from under the hood of the car) in one of the two holes on either side of the axle nut and wrench it in, it will pop off a stuck rotor. We still had to do some hammering/prying to get each rotor off, but the 12mm bolt trick really helped it get started. My helper friend said if the brakes are feeling mushy in a few days, we may need to bleed the system again. Just on the way home, the brakes seem to be now working great, there is better stopping power and brakes feel firmer, which is what I would expect. One pad was down to the metal backing plate and actually fell out of the old caliper when I removed it. Also on the way home I was going a bit fast on some snow and the ABS kicked in when I braked, so that seems to be working well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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