97 Legacy L losing coolant fast and overheating

[climbing4life]

I've had problems with my EJ22 5MT Legacy for a while.

It's ok on the freeway, but when I hit stop-n-go traffic, the temp gauges jumps up.

I haven't overheated yet. I pulled over a few times to let it cool. But if traffic starts to move, and I go back to normal driving, then the gauge goes back to the middle.

I've just done a 300-mile trip. Everything was great, there was no traffic. But when I got off the freeway on my way back, in the very last half-mile, I've got one street light and four stop signs, the gauge jumped up again just when I arrived home.

Everything is wet on the driver's side, but I can't see any coolant leak. Also, the coolant is pushed into the overflow tank. When engine cools off, sometimes the coolant gets sucked back from overflow, but sometimes the tank stays almost full.

I've added almost like a couple of gallons of coolant recently. Like 12 to 20 oz every morning.

Does it sound familiar?

I hope it's not headgasket...

There's 219K on the odometer, the engine runs smooth, oil is clean and level ok.

[lmdew]

Sounds like your fans are not working.  Quick check, start it and turn on the AC.  Do the Fans both start working?  if so it's not your fans and you have a way to keep it cool when you are in stop and go traffic, just turn on the AC.

 

If that's the case, it's most likely your temp switch on the manifold behind the intake.  Passenger side, down on top of the block.  The larger of the two with the plastic connector.

 

If the fans are not working at all, check the fuses.  You can also hook up the diagnostic plugs under the dash to have the ECU cycle the fans on and off.

[climbing4life]

Yeah, I suspected the fans, too. I still don't know if they work the way they suppose to...

Both fans are working. But both AC and heater are not. (The previous owner said he had disconnected the heater core.)

One fan turns on quite regularly (the one that is on driver's side). When the gauge jumped up, I popped the hood and saw both fans were on.

How can I check the temp switch ?

[AdventureSubaru]

fans or temp sensor wouldn't account for coolant loss.

 

Wet drivers side suggests you have a leak. Soak a white rag, or tissues/toilet paper to see if you can ID it by color/scent. (Probably greenish and smelling like coolant) Chances are you have a leak or a failing heater core. it's a bit of a pain to get to but not the worst fix.

 

Follow the two cooling hoses as they pass through the firewall into the interior. Get flexible and shine a flashlight up under the dash. Start pulling your console apart and dig in and find your leak.

[montana tom]

 OMG !!! Disconnected the heater core !!! ...You won't see that around here... If your losing coolant you probably have a hose leaking . The previous owner probably used one old heater hose to connect back to the other pipe. That is the first place to look . Under the dash wont help if the core is disconnected. The small rubber hoses connecting to the intake manifold are another good place to check. If all else fails go to a local mechanic and ask him to put the pressure tester on and bring it up to pressure with the engine off, makes it much easier to spot small leaks that way. The engine must be cool enough to open the rad cap when you bring it to him. Or go to harbor freight and buy a cheap one and do it yourself !

[upnorthguy]

If you end up going deep for the core, beergarage has a decent play by play here.

[climbing4life]

Thank you guys!

Eventually, I'm gonna have to address the heater core issue. Not having heat in the cabin's been a pain in the rear, even in sunny Cal!

I've looked at the hoses. The one that bypasses heater core is a special U-shaped one and looks pretty good and stays dry.

Two hoses that go to the water pump, one large one, and the other smaller one were all wet and had drips of coolant on them.

I'll seek for an access to pressure tester.

Those two hoses looked pretty bad, although I saw no cracks in them. But if it's most likely hoses, I think I'll try to replace them with new ones anyways.

What/where other hoses I should look at? (I found no other hoses that were wet.)

What is a good place to source good new hoses? Subaru dealer, Napa store, Ebay ?

[AdventureSubaru]

To curb the loss of coolant and buy some time you can just loop the two hoses before they go to the interior. Take off one entirely, disconnect the other by the firewall and attach it to the end of the other.

 

You can get by just fine usually with junkyard parts. If you ever come down near Santa Cruz, I might have some you can have for free. Napa and others will sell it by the foot. Just need to figure which is leaking and then what the diameter is.

[montana tom]

climbing; Yup subi,napa, any parts house will have it all. Try changing your rad cap... they can go bad.If that doesn't help then your water pump is another possibility, one you don't want.  Usually a water pump leak shows up at the crack of the timing cover but it runs everywhere. Buy a can of brake clean... spray everything  that looks wet , clean and dry it, then run your motor.  If your lucky you will spot the new leak without going anyplace... if your not then drive it and keep looking.  Worry about your heater core later its not the problem . If you don't find & fix the leak ...sooner or later you are going to overheat the motor and you will need head gaskets.

[montana tom]

By the way, If you do change your lower hoses, when you have them all hooked up and tight..... Remove the upper radiator hose and pour your antifreeze directly into the engine ,by way of the upper hose. After you get the engine filled THEN hook the upper hose back on the radiator and pour the rest of your coolant in the radiator cap.  If you don't do this  you won't get enough water behind the thermostat to open and YOUR ENGINE WILL OVERHEAT !!! A sure way to need head gaskets.

[idosubaru]

A.  start it full of coolant, cold, and rev the engine a bit - Is it leaking?  Is coolant showing anywhere?  look for a leak then before it's exploded all over the place.

 

B.  what happens if you do a highway drive - then shut the car off and let it cool down without ever letting it overheat? 

 

1.  is it still wet?

2.  is the radiator low on coolant?
3.  does the overflow container show any movement?

 

it's either a leak or a headgasket.

 

Based on the heater core hack job and it only overheats on the highway the headgasket is highly suspicious.  If it was just a leak I would expect some overheating at some point when it gets too low due to a leak.  Of course it could just be the leak rate is slow and you haven't driven it far enough....

 

why was the heater core bypassed - if it's because the previous owner couldn't track down an odd overheating issue then it's probably the headgasket.

 

but - before you freak out - those 2.2 headgaskets are crazy easy to replace. Can be done in the vehicle, the bolts are all external so there's no removing of the valve cover or cams at all necessary.

Edited February 5, 2015 by grossgary

[climbing4life]

Hi guys, Thank you so much for your input!

I've had no time to work on the car yet, but hopefully start doing it this coming weekend. Until then the car is parked.

grossgary, just wanted to clarify:

B. highway drive is fine; it's stop-n-go driving that leads to overheating.

I haven't overheated the engine yet. When the gauge goes up, I'll pull over and let it cool.

1. yes, stil wet

2. yes, the radiator gets low on coolant, but I maintain the proper level by adding coolant daily. I also remove excessive coolant from the overflow container and pour it back into radiator.

3. the overflow container gets full while driving, but when it cools off, sometimes it looses the overflow, and sometimes it stays full.

 

And I've just gotten a DMV paper to go to smog.

If it is headgasket, can any one recommend a really good shop in San Francisco Bay Area ?

 

Now I can't find out exactly why the previous owner bypassed the heater core.

However, I think it's logical that for driving in the Bay Area heater isn't as important as in Midwest or the like. Maybe he just didn't want to invest into the proper repair job?

I remember that he said that he overheated the car once due to a crack in the radiator. Then he replaced the radiator and had the timing belt done. I have the repair bill, it was at 186K.

He said that he had had no problems with all drivetrain until he sold me the car at 202K. I had not had any issues until like 217K...

[idosubaru]

my guess is headgaskets, but hopefully I'm wrong and it's something simple.

 

you can have the coolant tested for exhaust gases.  there's a chemical test available at auto parts stores and some mechanics have an electrical tester i believe.

 

headgaskets push exhaust into the coolant and cause the coolant to push out of the radiator and into the overflow tank and push/boil out of the overflow tank.  this causes coolant all over that area of the engine...it drips down from there and some may hit the fan and splatter around too.

 

if it is headgaskets make sure they resurface the heads and use Subaru headgaskets on that engine.

[climbing4life]

grossgary, your description is exactly what I see with my car.

Here is the update:

Took the car to a mechanic. He said all hoses needed to be replaced and quoted $530 for parts and labor.

He said that the upper radiator hose was particularly very bad.

Then I asked why all the coolant was on the driver's side.

He said that he didn't find any leaks from hoses on the driver's side.

According to him it was ok to change all the hoses and then see if overheating stops.

I asked about headgaskets. He said he could not confirm or deny that new headgaskets needed.

But he said that engine is all covered in oil, so if I wanted any further job or even a test on this car, I was gonna have to

take it to carwash for engine powerwash. He suggested a place for carwash.

Those guys charge $200 to wash an engine!

I'm out. I'm not paying two hundred bucks to wash a Subaru engine. No way.

I was really hoping that the Subaru shop could be more precise with their diagnostic.

I'll be doing all by myself. Taking the engine out, cleaning it, and replacing headgaskets and other gaskets.

When I get stuck,  I'll ask here in a new thread.

Thank you guys! You are great!

[AdventureSubaru]

$530 for hoses? Guy is nuts! When you get to it, I can probably set you up with all new (good used) upper and lower rad hoses and rear coolant hoses for free. probably more as I'm doing an engine swap and will have a complete EJ22 and parts to pull from this week. I have extras kicking around the shop that I wont use.

 

I'm in the bay area as well so if you need any help, advice, parts etc. feel free to pm me.

 

Don't pull the motor without a solid diagnosis that the headgaskets are indeed failing. Call around and find a shop that will run a compression test for a reasonable rate. These motors were not known for common failure of the head gaskets. It's possible, even a likely cause.

 

But I would not rule out blockage, sticky thermostat, bad hoses, failing/leaking water pump, failed coolant manifold o-ring. Could be a dozen easy fixes that don't require as much time, $$$ and effort as headgaskets.

 

If you ever get down toward Santa Cruz, I'd be glad to look over it and see if I can't tell you what the real issue is.

[ccrinc]

$530 for hoses may be nuts, but remember that this guy is in the San Fran area.  Shop rates there run ~$130+/hr.  plus parts.  And that's not a dealer.  It's an expensive place to live.

 

Also, your radiator is probably going/gone bad by now.  That's why the additional air flow from higher speeds helps keep the engine cool(ish).  These radiators tend to corrode from the inside>out. 

 

At 219K miles, it's just high time to give your car some love and maintenance.

[climbing4life]

Working slowly, I have taken the motor out of the car and disassembled it.

 

Here are the things that annoyed me so much:

1. Right lower bolt that holds the engine to the transmission had the nut missing

2. Plastic covers in front of the motor are melted

3. Manual transmission, but an anti-bump cover that keeps the timing belt snug on the the crank pulley was missing

4. Idler pulleys sound like rollerskates. I looked at the PO's bill for the last timing belt service, and it said that only timing belt

and waterpump had been replaced. And the belt and the pump do look newer and cleaner than all other front components!

 

From what I've read on the forums and seen on youtube, the right HG was certainly leaking while the left one stayed more or less ok ?

 

I've got no machinist straight edge and can't do the measurements yet. 

Please take a look at the pictures of the block and heads and let me know what you think.

 

Is the engine still worth HG replacement?

 

 

 

[ccrinc]

 

2. Plastic covers in front of the motor are melted

If they are melted, your engine has gotten HOT, multiple times.  

3. Manual transmission, but an anti-bump cover that keeps the timing belt snug on the the crank pulley was missing

Those were never put on the EJ22 engines.

4. Idler pulleys sound like rollerskates. I looked at the PO's bill for the last timing belt service, and it said that only timing belt

Yep, need replacing.

and waterpump had been replaced. And the belt and the pump do look newer and cleaner than all other front components!

 

From what I've read on the forums and seen on youtube, the right HG was certainly leaking while the left one stayed more or less ok ?

 

I've got no machinist straight edge and can't do the measurements yet. 

Please take a look at the pictures of the block and heads and let me know what you think.

 

Is the engine still worth HG replacement?

 

As I said before, it's also highly likely that your radiator is at least partially clogged.  They tend to corrode from the inside>out.

It is worth noting that, with 219K on the engine, you need to take as little as possible off the head to make it flat.  You do NOT want to bump up the compression thereby making the "bottom" end fail.  Also, when you say the temp gauge "jumps up", how high? It doesn't need to be pegged to be overheated.  And any overheating compromises the head gaskets.

At this point, it's a 50/50 chance.  It's a high mileage engine that has been repeatedly run hot, the former owner obviously had problems and didn't do anything but gerry-rig a "fix" and pass it on to the next guy (you). 

Put on some Genuine Subaru head gaskets, replace the idler pulleys and see what happens.

[idosubaru]

EJ22 engines are really cheap and easy to find if you're not in Denver or the PNW.  if price is a concern you can easily use an EJ18 as well, easily interchangeable.

EJ18 and EJ22's are routinely available for $100 - $250 on www.car-part.com or cheaper from a Upull.  i've bought them between $150 and $350 and that was looking for a low mileage engine to match a friends car.

 

what i'm seeing is that it was overheating on the previous owner.

maybe they dumped stop leak in for a quick fire sale and bought some time.

it's been doing this for almost the entire time you've owned it right?

 

engine is questionable.

this is completely anecdotal and one experience which i routinely discount but last melted cover engine my friend installed had rod knock very shortly after installing it.

 

resurface the heads and use Subaru gaskets if you want to try it.

EJ22 headgaskets are super duper easy and can be done in the car.

[climbing4life]

ccrinc and grossgary, thanks for your input!

 

I have not rulled out an engine replacement. An engine hoist and an engine stand from craigslist are so far the only investment in this project.

And I have had a fun time doing it all by myself!

I want to do what is the best deal for me in order to keep this car.

I had faith in the old engine because for the first 15 000 miles of owning this car it had been great. No single hick up.

Then the weird losing coolant and overheating showed up.

But is was still running very smooth and had a great gas mileage.

After a while of driving on freeway, when I hit traffic or go to city driving with lots of street lights and stop signs, the temp gauge jumped up from 9 o'clock to between 11 and 12.

No 10 o'clock, just straigt up. I pulled over a few times and let it cool, or other times I noticed in the stop--n-go traffic if I go to highway speed, the gauge drops down to 9 o'clock just as fast as it went up.

Both fans were working. But the overflow was getting full and bubles or boils in there. That was probably how the coolant was splashed out.

The radiator was replaced at 186K, so not that old. I don't know how to check if it got clogged.

 

Picknpull yards in our area charge for an engine  $220 plus tax and environmental fee. I have not yeat researched how to choose an engine out of a junk yard car. 

Most Legacys I've seen so far had about the same as my car 200-250 K. Maybe the low mile motors get pulled out and sold before the car goes onto the lot.

[idosubaru]

any 1996-1998 impreza, legacy, or OB EJ22 will work. 

an EJ18 or 1995 and ealier EJ22 will require the exhaust manifold with it or swap your heads onto the block.

 

 

$300 EJ18  with 104,000 miles  800-825-0064

 

prices are higher there: these are all $500, but low mileage EJ22's:

 

805-343-5552

114,000 miles

 

818-512-6100

97,000 miles

 

909-428-1111

124,000 miles

[AdventureSubaru]

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/pts/4904235567.html One with a bent valve going cheap in the bay area. I have a good set of heads if you don't want to mess with it.

 

I've pulled a few pick n pull motors over the years. Only ever got burned on one. Usually do some investigation on why it ended up there. My last one was an 88,000 mile EJ22 that was t-boned in the backside with a geico sticker that reads "runs" That was too easy!

 

But accident damage etc. is usually a good sign.

[climbing4life]

In the past few days, I've been to all local boneyards and found no EJ22 available right now. I'll keep looking and eventually pull a low mileage engine, but in the meantime I'd like to give this old and compromised motor a try. Mainly to learn from working on it and get some experience. I don't have very high expectations, just want to get together a running motor. If it can last for a little while, maybe six month to a year, that'd be great. It will give me time to get a good used motor, reseal, and swap. I've got another car to drive at the moment, so no rush is ok.

 

I'll resurface heads and get headgaskets from Subaru. I've searched and found here where forum members would like to use Subaru seals and gaskets, but for the engine that is not intended to last even a couple of years (no more than 25K miles either), do you think that MizumoAuto on eBay full gasket set and timing belt set are just fair enough? Or is their quality inferior and I should stick with Subaru/Fel-Pro/Gates stuff ? Those mizumo things could really save me a buck...

 

While searching for a EJ22, found EJ251. Somebody took trans out and left the motor. But the screws on the rear separator plate had all broken heads. There was no way for me to pull it. Maybe next time, if it is still there, I'll bring screw extractor to deal with the screws. I think that the plate is the same part as on EJ22, isn't it? Also, can I re-use the screws from the plastic one that are on my engine?

Also can't find part # for NGK spark plugs that I should use ?

 

Thanks!

[Fairtax4me]

It does look like the compression rings were compromised, especially on the right side.

 

Clean it up, have the heads machined and put new gaskets on it.

Fel-pro head gaskets for the 22 are the same as what you get from the dealer, but at half the cost.

 

I've used Mizumo timing kits several times and have been happy with them. Their gasket kits I can't comment on but you can piece together your own pretty easily.

[climbing4life]

I felt something fishy when I saw a little bit of oil coming out at the bottom of the cylinders under the pistons on the engine right side while the engine on the stand.

Is that from bad compression rings?

The left side looks ok, clean.

And the compression ring fix requires to take apart the short block ? If so, I'm not gonna do it.

 

The seals that come with the mizumo timing kit, brown color, I believe for the front end components, they are ok, right?