Bushwick Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Couple days ago while running to a doctor appointment, I was doing about 45 and saw this pickup truck plow truck backing down a driveway and towards the road I was traveling, as I kept watching him thinking he'd stop, he didn't stop and proceeded to back out in front of me completely blocking the street. He NEVER even looked to see if traffic was coming as I was watching him look forward while apparently talking to passengers. I laid on the brakes and after stopping about 75% of the way, I thought I started sliding. Forgetting the horn is 2 little buttons while looking forward, I started banging on the wheel thinking I was going to hit him. Finally found horn in the anger-induced panic which he backed up even further and ended up having to swerve off the road into about 14" of snow down a steep slope beside the road. Guy finally got out of truck and accused me of being impatient thinking the horn was because I didn't want to wait while blocked traffic!!! I explained no, he backed out and I almost hit him. He was like "I looked both ways and didn't see anyone" which wasn't true. He offered to pulled me out so I left it at that as I wasn't go sit around for a possible ticket as he had 2 passengers meaning it'd be me against x3. Apparently it hadn't skidded. The brake line that connects to the passenger rubber line junction and the ABS module ruptured under the panic braking. Why brake lines aren't mandated to be a non rusting metal like copper or even aluminum is beyond me. Had the rupture occurred 2-4 seconds earlier, I would have t-boned the idiot. Thankfully the car was barely drivable as it still had a slight pedal and with downshifting gradually to "1" then quickly neutral, didn't need the e-brake and was able to make it to doctor 20 minutes late, then drive 8 miles to AZ to get another brake line and fluid. Swapped line there and limped it home and bled the system at home. Very odd as I never heard any air escape and was basically fluid exiting the entire time. Had to do it twice to get a solid pedal i.e. LR, RR, LF, RF, then repeat. Each time spent about 5 cracking and bleeding and topping off as needed. Very lucky is was in the mid 30's. Anyways, since this is the 2nd time brake lines have needed to be replaced on this (driver's rear that went around the rear crossmember to driver rear caliper was bad buying the car, which appeared to be a replacement that ruptured) I suggest finding a section of flat road and trying to come to a very quick stop from about 40-50 with no other cars around nor people and see if the brakes are OK. I'm going to get into the habit of this myself as any present defects waiting to fail, will hopefully surface THEN, rather then when the car really needs to stop! Happy wintering!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Glad you survived a near accident. Just last week, I had a friend install rear struts on my 98 OBW, only to learn that his work resulted in a massive brake fluid leak. I had to have the car flat bed hauled to a shop, where they replaced both brake lines to rear wheels. Was told they had to drop the gas tank to do a good job. Cost of $475 to do brake lines. I wasn't happy with the cost, but with cold and snow on the ground, and no place to work on it myself, I had to have a shop do the work. I agree, brake lines should be made of a material that does NOT rust. It could not add that much extra cost to the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushwick Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 By the way, if yours does eventually rupture, you can try the e-brake in bursts as well as downshifting auto to D, 2, and finally 1. "1" will slow the car down very quickly. Trying pumping the brakes in 1 to stop the car. Manual trans pretty much same deal, but the braking effect of 1st gear probably won't be as strong. Pulling the e-brake up hard can cause the car to fishtail which is bad. Pulling up while holding the button in gradually until it's starting to slow the car down, is much safer as it'll be less likely to kick out. Try and keep the steering wheel straight! Bumping the e-back lever "up" will be like a really slow ABS method and won't allow a skid. Even if only one wheel is braking from e-brake, it's better than nothing. Brake fluid is extremely bad for painted surfaces and will strip paint right off, so again be careful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushwick Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) Glad you survived a near accident. Just last week, I had a friend install rear struts on my 98 OBW, only to learn that his work resulted in a massive brake fluid leak. I had to have the car flat bed hauled to a shop, where they replaced both brake lines to rear wheels. Was told they had to drop the gas tank to do a good job. Cost of $475 to do brake lines. I wasn't happy with the cost, but with cold and snow on the ground, and no place to work on it myself, I had to have a shop do the work. I agree, brake lines should be made of a material that does NOT rust. It could not add that much extra cost to the car. Should have told them to just reroute the lines. Can always snip the old ones at either end, and pull through so they aren't banging around. As long as they aren't hanging, rubbing, etc. new ones can be rerouted. $475 to add $15-$20 worth of lines and 15 minutes to bleed the brakes is INSANE! Always use a small socket and ratchet or as last resort a boxed wrench and the bleeders should loosen up. Edited February 6, 2015 by Bushwick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Should have told them to just reroute the lines. Can always snip the old ones at either end, and pull through so they aren't banging around. As long as they aren't hanging, rubbing, etc. new ones can be rerouted. $475 to add $15-$20 worth of lines and 15 minutes to bleed the brakes is INSANE! Always use a small socket and ratchet or as last resort a boxed wrench and the bleeders should loosen up. agree on $475 being insane. I hate to take my car to any shop for work. Just so easy to get screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 very glad that you (and your car) are ok! and yeah, something as important as the brake system should be made of something more durable... I have found huge variances in the quality of aftermarket replacment lines, too - some have the anti-corrosion coatings, some dont... be careful of what you buy/replace with! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushwick Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) Thanks. Glad too as the car needs to remain roadworthy, though the guy was clearly at fault. Many of these plow drivers are going on 10-15 hours non stop, even more when a heavy snow occurs over several days. I was allowed in the back of AZ to look at various lines. Although I opted for steel replacements, they do have what appears to be copper lines and they were being advertised as non rusting. Probably smart to go with those, especially in the rear around the crossmember. Our lines are metric, so if you have to replace, remember that. The line cost about $4 and the fluid was a staggering $8. The nut portion is 10mm. If it won't easily crack free, use vice grips. The replacement line was about 4" shorter, so get creative unless you want to use multiple lines and have excess hanging about. It's VERY easy to do brake lines. Cost around $10 to do the rear one, but ended up going further back to a junction. Also VERY easy to bleed yourself. I've done all my own bleeding over the years. Some cars are easier. I took a small section of wood, about 1" wide by 1/2" thick. It was 36" long. With pedal all the way to the floor, put the wood (or whatever you have handy) on the pedal, then lay it to the front seat track edge. Cut the wood to that which takes 30 seconds. Pump the pedal 5-10 times then hold all the way down, put wood on pedal and prop on seat track edge, get out and crack the bleeder and snug. Repeat several times, typical until air stops exiting. In this case, couldn't hear air exiting so just went did it anyways. Can do with car running or off, seems easier with these with engine running. I made a mistake and went for driver side before passenger front, should start furthest away from master cylinder, then 2nd furthest, 3rd, then closest. When you open the bleeder, as long as you have some pretension on the pedal with a wood rod or whatever you are using, the pedal will go down a little further as pressure is released. Takes 15-20 minutes but works great if no one is around to help. $475 is insane. All you need is correct length tube, 10mm socket and boxed wrench, and new DOT 3 or 4 fluid, and a prop rod, and you can do your own brakes at cost which is typically under $20. The copper lines are tad more expensive. Edited February 6, 2015 by Bushwick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Should have told them to just reroute the lines. Can always snip the old ones at either end, and pull through so they aren't banging around. As long as they aren't hanging, rubbing, etc. new ones can be rerouted. $475 to add $15-$20 worth of lines and 15 minutes to bleed the brakes is INSANE! Always use a small socket and ratchet or as last resort a boxed wrench and the bleeders should loosen up. This was just what I though. No point in pulling the tank.....likely to be more problems with that on a rusty car. I replaced a set of rear lines on a rustbucket (former east coast car) and the customer could not affrord alot of money.....so I cut the old lines and routed the new ones behind the tank above the crossmember as best I could. They are tucked up tight and don't vibrate so should be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I've fixed more rusted out brake lines than I care to think about. Its scary how many vehicles have ticking time bombs for brake lines. And I'm not talking just 3,000lb Subarus, I'm mean 6,000lb pickup trucks and vans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushwick Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 A little trick that can work wonders if you flare your own lines is to buy vacuum hose with an inside diameter a step up from the solid line's OD. Then just feed the line through before flaring the end. Or if you have the money, get a couple containers of heat shrink wrap and do the same. Heat after flaring and get as close to the nut and it should hold up awhile. Noticed the factory line has something similar on a few bends, but it just rots where the coating stops. Can also use hose a few inches long, cut a slit lengthwise on one end, slip over the metal tube, and it'll help protect the metal from rubbing, but won't seal it obviously. Slip over 2 lines running along each other, then ziptie together. It'll effectively isolate them from chaffing or rattling. When I ran my oil gauge where the ash tray used to be, I went with a copper line instead of an electronic sender, which means the oil is flowing into the cabin area. Went ahead and sleeved the entire copper section from gauge to 1/2" before it threads into the engine with vacuum line as a safety measure to protect the copper, and also contain the oil so it can only exit on one end or the other if the copper ever ruptured as opposed to behind the dash. Makes bending the line easier too and prevents any metal on copper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in KY Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I was always told never to use either copper lines or compression fittings. Copper "work hardens" over time and then will crack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I was always told never to use either copper lines or compression fittings. Copper "work hardens" over time and then will crack. There are copper nickel alloy brake lines that are DOT approved. Austin mini I worked on last year came from the factory w/them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushwick Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 Maybe it needs extra fasteners to remain still? From what I've read, it's apparently a copper/nickel mix, and seems like it might become more mainstream since an average auto's life expectancy is increasing i.e. more older cars in the 10 year+ range still serving daily driving duties and manufacturers would have less warranty issues with brake lines that typically last that long or longer in harsh conditions. Funny the focus is that and not overall safety. I've had a few brake lines bust over the years while driving, with I think the last time being my old 92' SHO and I was a good 100+ miles from home on the highway. I made it home with virtually no brakes and timed everything while anticipating lights, etc. and had no issues and avoided an extremely expensive tow bill + being a DIY'r avoided any ridiculous repair bill. But many can't or won't know how to do that and some might panic completely and wreck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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