comatosellama Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Seems like if you're going to make a subframe and drop the original one, you could offset it a few inches forward. Would make your approach angle 0 and let you climb up vertical walls. Anyone done this? Theoretically you could do this to the rear axle as well, but would probably look funky as heck. Anyone ever done it? Only issue I can see is steering, and if you use too thin walled material, bending. Thoughts? Opinios? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skishop69 Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Considering you would have to move the entire suspension assembly forward, I'd say no. It's not like you can easily cut out the strut towers and relocate them forward. You couldn't just move the control arm and knuckle forward either as your caster angle would be so positive your steering response would be worthless. You'd need a 10 point turn just to make a street corner. lol Most of the lifts I've seen with the T-case mod were 6" and they used 31" tires and trimmed up the fenders which pretty much gives you a zero approach angle. So I guess what I'm saying is no, you can't just move the subframe forward. You'd never be able to correct the steering geometry without moving the strut towers forward as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comatosellama Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 Considering you would have to move the entire suspension assembly forward, I'd say no. It's not like you can easily cut out the strut towers and relocate them forward. You couldn't just move the control arm and knuckle forward either as your caster angle would be so positive your steering response would be worthless. You'd need a 10 point turn just to make a street corner. lol Most of the lifts I've seen with the T-case mod were 6" and they used 31" tires and trimmed up the fenders which pretty much gives you a zero approach angle. So I guess what I'm saying is no, you can't just move the subframe forward. You'd never be able to correct the steering geometry without moving the strut towers forward as well. I'm talking move where all of the things are mounted, except for the strut towers. Which I didn't think through. I think that'd be the only real problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbosubarubrat Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Depending on how big of a lift you could angle the strut tower blocks at a angle going forward plus the offset of the block for correct stock geometry. Same concept for the rear but you would want to angle it back a little since when lifted the tires want to rub on the front of the rear wheel well. I don't know how much that would change steering though since your wheel base would be a couple inches longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skishop69 Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 You're still going to end up with too much positive caster and you'd have to make sure the engine stayed level or you're going to tip the tailshaft into the ground. The only way to maintain useable caster and steering geometry is to move the strut towers as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferox Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Seems like it might be easier to bob/cut the front end (forward of the front wheels) as much as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comatosellama Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 You're still going to end up with too much positive caster and you'd have to make sure the engine stayed level or you're going to tip the tailshaft into the ground. The only way to maintain useable caster and steering geometry is to move the strut towers as well. The engine would be where it normally is. The suspension and steering bits would be moved down and forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbosubarubrat Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) The engine would be where it normally is. The suspension and steering bits would be moved down and forward. That would work. Edited April 15, 2015 by turbosubarubrat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comatosellama Posted April 16, 2015 Author Share Posted April 16, 2015 That would work. Struts would be the problem. I was thinking maybe an A arm to go into the normal strut receptacle, and then a coilover of some sort mounted in the upper wheel well, something like an ea82 rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott in Bellingham Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 yes, I moved everything forward 2 or 3" on both the silver bobbed wagon and my red sedan And when you make the strut extensions you build it into them , you keep all the stock geometry just bring it forward, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skishop69 Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 (edited) +1 and thank you Scott. Again, no it won't without moving the struts forward. They already have more positive caster than almost every vehicle of that era and pushing it forward without relocating the struts is going to cause serious steering issues. You'll be tilting the steering axis backwards essentially using the 'back side' of the tire to turn. What this means is that instead of the tire turning left to right, it would be tilting in and out top to bottom. Granted it would still be turning right to left as well, but not nearly as much. This reduces your effective turning radius and speed of steering response left to right making it UNSAFE to drive on the streets and almost utterly useless wheeling unless the turn you're making has a 20' radius. Let's say you're driving down the road behind someone and for whatever reason they dynamite their brakes. Your normal 45 degree steering jerk to swerve around them is now 2-3 times more making it 90-180 degrees. You cannot make that same turn in the same amount of time and you've just rear ended them. Add to that, the steering is no longer going to return to center automatically now. Why? I'm glad I asked. Let's say you're turning left. With the axis tilted back, the tires will tilt and turn. The tilt will cause the inside edge of the left tire and the outside edge of the right tire to catch the pavement and essentially get 'hooked' in place. You will have to physically turn the steering wheel to bring it back to center. There is a reason steering gear ratios and caster settings are so close from manufacturer to manufacturer and in such a small window. You CANNOT push only the lower portion of the suspension and steering forward without creating safety and handing issues. Not to mention the stress you'd be putting on the top hat (upper strut mount) by changing the angle. Can we say disintegrate in short order? There is NO safe way to do it without relocating the top of the struts. Edited April 16, 2015 by skishop69 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbosubarubrat Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 +1 and thank you Scott. Again, no it won't without moving the struts forward. They already have more positive caster than almost every vehicle of that era and pushing it forward without relocating the struts is going to cause serious steering issues. You'll be tilting the steering axis backwards essentially using the 'back side' of the tire to turn. What this means is that instead of the tire turning left to right, it would be tilting in and out top to bottom. Granted it would still be turning right to left as well, but not nearly as much. This reduces your effective turning radius and speed of steering response left to right making it UNSAFE to drive on the streets and almost utterly useless wheeling unless the turn you're making has a 20' radius. Let's say you're driving down the road behind someone and for whatever reason they dynamite their brakes. Your normal 45 degree steering jerk to swerve around them is now 2-3 times more making it 90-180 degrees. You cannot make that same turn in the same amount of time and you've just rear ended them. Add to that, the steering is no longer going to return to center automatically now. Why? I'm glad I asked. Let's say you're turning left. With the axis tilted back, the tires will tilt and turn. The tilt will cause the inside edge of the left tire and the outside edge of the right tire to catch the pavement and essentially get 'hooked' in place. You will have to physically turn the steering wheel to bring it back to center. There is a reason steering gear ratios and caster settings are so close from manufacturer to manufacturer and in such a small window. You CANNOT push only the lower portion of the suspension and steering forward without creating safety and handing issues. Not to mention the stress you'd be putting on the top hat (upper strut mount) by changing the angle. Can we say disintegrate in short order? There is NO safe way to do it without relocating the top of the struts. You could do it with blocks and be fine. It would need to be braced with something on the unibody and welded on. Even if you have to cut out part of the inner fender who cares it's a wheeler. But i kind of agree with you. By that time i would just put a frame under it with solid axles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comatosellama Posted April 17, 2015 Author Share Posted April 17, 2015 You could do it with blocks and be fine. It would need to be braced with something on the unibody and welded on. Even if you have to cut out part of the inner fender who cares it's a wheeler. But i kind of agree with you. By that time i would just put a frame under it with solid axles I honestly kinda prefer FIS. Owning a RZR has made me completely biased to it. Welded rear and a clutch type LSD front on a roo would be pretty nice. I've always wanted to throw a rzrs suspension and axles and diffs in a brat. I've never had a problem keeping up with solid axle buggies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Considering you would have to move the entire suspension assembly forward, I'd say no. It's not like you can easily cut out the strut towers and relocate them forward. You couldn't just move the control arm and knuckle forward either as your caster angle would be so positive your steering response would be worthless. You'd need a 10 point turn just to make a street corner. lol Most of the lifts I've seen with the T-case mod were 6" and they used 31" tires and trimmed up the fenders which pretty much gives you a zero approach angle. So I guess what I'm saying is no, you can't just move the subframe forward. You'd never be able to correct the steering geometry without moving the strut towers forward as well. It could easily be done by using making a forward offset to the front blocks in addition to the forward push of the front subframe. Would have to push the radius rod or arm rear pivot forward too. I used an Isuzu frame and front suspension for my t-case build...but the centerline of he the front wheels is 3 inches forward of he the stock location relative to the body. Also I believe also that the big legacy sedan done by a board member in Conneticut has it's front suspension pushed forward. A few inches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skishop69 Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I agree it can be done so I guess I shouldn't have said can't, but the safety and handling issue is still there. In your case, everything was moved forward so it works well. I don't know about the Lego, though. I'd be interested to hear from him to see exactly what he did and what he noticed in the way of steering issues. I messed with a lot of steering configurations and axle rotation when I was building wheelers and always ended up putting things back as close to stock as I could to get rid of steering issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Subafreak. In CT http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/106113-monster-wagon-vr2-monster-sedan-build-thread/page-3?hl=subafreak Lots of fab but it is possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skishop69 Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 That is a great build but holy crap that's a LOT of caster. I still hold that that amount is going to cause steering issues. They may not be as bad as they were with our full size, solid axle rigs, but the physics of it says it will. Would still like his input on how it changed steering response. Hell of a lift. Hat's off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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