specific flat rate time for.....

[cag]

I was wondering if anyone has the specific flat rate time or dealer suggested time (published/official) for a Subaru mechanic to do an oil change on a 2.5 turbo vs a normally aspirated model, for year 2005.

If there are any mechanics or techs presently working at a Subaru dealer out there, retired can chime in too, I'd love to hear what the actual official published time from the Subaru factory.

Thanks in advance

[Razorthirty]

I would like to know this as well, also whats the trans r+r vs a n/a?

[nipper]

There are some jobs that I never really thought about book time, this is one of them.

[Fairtax4me]

For an oil change? I don't know if there even is a book time for that.

[lstevens76]

https://www.automd.com/repaircost/

 

For a Turbo '04 WRX STI it's .4 hours (basically 1/2 an hour)

 

And it takes the exact same amount of time on an '04 TS

 

Didn't think there would be any difference.  It's a bolt, let it drain, pull the filter, put the new one in, put the bolt in, fill with oil.  

[1 Lucky Texan]

hmmm...kinda wondering if that year turbo requires banjo-bolt oil screen inspection. That's gonna add some time to the turbo job..

Edited April 29, 2015 by 1 Lucky Texan

[Silent Bob]

Oil changes at most shops are a loss-leader  $29.95 (or so) special just to get people in the door to upsell profitable jobs.  They typically pay the tech .3 to .5 hr. We get .4. I'm not sure there is an official time. 

[Razorthirty]

I was more curious about the Transmission R+R to be honest. Bout to pull mine to swap the front diff..

[nipper]

I was more curious about the Transmission R+R to be honest. Bout to pull mine to swap the front diff..

Wont be a fair comparison unless you have a left, engine/transmission jack, extra hands, all the tools

[lstevens76]

Wont be a fair comparison unless you have a left, engine/transmission jack, extra hands, all the tools

Actually, check out Automd.

 

It lists shop hours and DIY hours along with the average dealer/shop rate around your area and parts cost if you buy them local.

[cag]

Wow!   Frankly I did not expect anyone would read or respond. 

And, I want to thank you all for responding! 

 

Concisely, this is not about how hard the oil change is, what needs to changed or done, for the moment.

The question is, specifically, what does Subaru note the time should be.  If there was a flat rate time, what

did Subaru publish, officially, for the oil change on the 2.5 turbo and non turbo for the Legacy's. 

 

I know this might sound a bit of an odd question, but so far   1 Lucky Texan has the 'smoking gun' award.

 

I need the 'official' in writing time Subaru published!

Edited April 30, 2015 by cag

[1 Lucky Texan]

no mentin of suggested charges/time I don't think, but if you car falls under the oil screen TSB, there will be more time, and possibly parts, charged.

RE

1. Subaru Service Bulletin #02-103-07

2. Subaru Service Bulletin #02-106-08R

3. Subaru Service Bulletin #02-110-10R

4. Subaru TechTIPS Newsletter, November 2010

5. Forced Performance Bulletin #12/1/07

6. www.forcedperformance.net

[dwwataz]

When I was at Honda it was 0.2(1/5) an hour. Model, year, MAKE was irrelevant.. You'd be surprised how many Fords, Nissans, etc, came in.

[cag]

TSB 02-103-107 states

the banjo screen “.... should be checked to make sure it is not clogged or restricted....”

I guess it comes down to your interpretation of the word “should”.    
Should comes from middle English to mean “obliged to” or “ought to”.  
Some courts interpret “shall” as “should”.  If you want to play with that
meaning then “should” is mandatory.   Such as, you should drive on the correct
side of the road.... or else...

I called a local Subaru Dealer and asked what is their official time for an oil change  on the subject motor.  I was told .3 hours (about 18 minutes; quicker than Jiffy Lube I guess).   I then asked if the procedure included inspection of the banjo screen and I was told “no”.  I asked;  if the TSB says “it should be checked” why were they not checking it.  They said they only checked the screen if they felt there were suspect reasons to do so, and they also stated their interpretation of the TSB wording of “should” does not mean it is mandatory.  I asked them what is the time to check the banjo screen and they said about 7 hours.  

I then called Subaru Customer Support and asked about whether my Dealership “should” be checking the screen.  I was told that their interpretation of the TSB and its wording is that they are recommending that the Dealership’s check the screen, but they don’t have to.  

Given the fact that the original Owner’s Manual recommended oil change time was cut in half based on the various TSB’s, and I’m not yet aware,  for the moment,  if Subaru mailed out a notice to the original car owners, or if a “sticker” or Owner’s Manual addendum was created, and Subaru and all Dealerships are aware of the nature of oil issues and the design plugging up the banjo screen, you have to wonder what “should’ be going on.

Whether you want to view the issue of trashed turbo’s and engines as caused by a poor design or  lack of proper maintenance is subjective.  However, from a marketing standpoint, not properly resolving the issue, is both a big ticket issue for Subaru as well as a PR nightmare.  Granted the brand and performance has a following, at a price it seems.
 

[lstevens76]

What it sounds like is that you have a car w/ a blown out turbo and are upset.  I can understand that, but it doesn't meant Subaru didn't follow proper steps or that we know the whole story. 

 

If this is about the turbo's, etc... then a few questions need answered before going with what you said at the end.

 

1.)  What % of cars actually have this problem?  You have to realize that 9 out of 10 posts on the net are only people who have had problems.  The ones that don't have problems don't tend to post.  Subaru probably has a good idea for a % of failures to make the decision they did.

 

2.)  If the % was that high, why didn't they redesign and recall or extend the warranty (like the head gasket issue)?  I don't believe the percentage is that  high.  When Subaru knew it had a large % of head gasket failures it extended the warranty to deal with it.  If the % was that high they could have easily done the same thing with the turbos.

 

I'm sure your getting my drift that there is a lot more that goes into this than just whether it's checked at an oil change.  And if the % is lower it may be that it isn't normally required and the problem doesn't occur as often as it can appear to on the internet.

[cag]

Istevens.

 

I guess you would have to ask if Subaru removed the oil screen from future designs.

 

I do not not know what the % of failure rate was/is, nor do I know what the MTBF is on the design of this motor.

 

However, if an owner has a clear record on oil changes, a turbo blows because of bearing failure related to oil flow issues with the banjo screen,

then you have to ask when is it time to 'should' the screen, before failure or after failure.

 

In our particular case it was a 40k mile vehicle sold by Subaru Dealerhip, oil changes were every 3-4k miles while we have owned it, and it tossed the cookie

at 50K miles (just 10k miles and 9 months after buying the car), and the dip stick was checked 1 week before the blow out.  Hence, you might say the turbo could have failed for another issue not

related to lack of oil flow.   If you have a wide range or depth of experience and knowledge relating to this model engine's mode of turbo failure please post it.

I'd be interested in what you have (I have already spent many weeks reading most of the Subaru forums).

Edited May 1, 2015 by cag

[Fairtax4me]

I guess you would have to ask if Subaru removed the oil screen from future designs

 

The answer to this is out there somewhere. I'm pretty sure on newer models the screen was ditched because of problems with it getting clogged.

Actually I thought the reason for "should" was to remove the screen on the models that were having this issue, but I could be wrong on that.

Either way, a TSB only does you any good if you ask the dealer about a potential problem.

It's not a recall, in the regard that the dealer is mandated to perform a repair, problem or not. A TSB is basically just an informative bulletin with no action required.

[cag]

Fairtax4me.... "A TSB is basically just an informative bulletin with no action required."  Yes and No.  Although a Dealer (franchise) may present an argument that they are not compelled

to do a procedure noted by Subaru (designer and manufacturer), Subaru insists otherwise.   Obviously you cannot expect a Dealer to absorb the additional 7 or so hours of labor to check the Banjo screen with every oil change.  And, naturally you can imagine the look on a car owner's face when the Dealership's Service Advsior tells the customer its going to cost them $700 to $1,000 for the oil change because they want to inspect the Banjo filter because they "should".  Subaru's TSB allows the Dealership to point the finger at Subaru, at the same time Subaru is pointing the finger at them.  Leaving the car owner wondering why they are the ones getting the finger.

 

1) The original Owners Manual

TSB clearly states "Turbocharged engines ........it is recommended that the engine oil and filter be changed every 3,750 miles."  If I recall, wasn't the original oil service interval suggested something like 5,000 miles?   A car owner, relying on the original published service interval assumes they are complying with the manufacturer's recommendations so long as they are not exceeding that interval.  Subaru's original published service interval "implies" this.   Subaru and Dealerhships now insist that oil change interval is less than originally published and they cite the TSB.  What is good for the goose is good for the gander, hence if TSB is tossed on the table as the supporting document to infer car owners must do an oil change earlier than originally stipulated, the same document cites that the banjo screen and oil line should/shall be inspected to insure it is not clogged.  And, typically car manufacturers state that certain services or procedures 'should' be performed by the Dealer, hence the car owner relies on the Dealer to perform such services.

 

2) TSB's come in different flavors; some are published to give a heads up to the Dealers of odd issues, some suggest the Dealer's should look at things, and some recommend they must do something.   I read the subject TSB to as follows  'there is an issue with the turbo models that have a filter which can prevent the turbo from receiving proper lubrication and if it does not get it the turbo can become damaged (and the engine as well). You shall inspect the banjo screen regardless'.  I read the TSB and I assume that a Dealership will do this.  I also assume that the cost to this is assumed by either Subaru or the Dealer, and in the least I assume the Dealership will advise me why they did or did not check the screen.  The 'assume' means I consider there is an implied warranty with this vehicle; meaning Subaru has implied the vehicle will continue to drive down the road so long as the Dealerhship's "should" check the banjo screen.  Although the TSB implies that Dealerships should check the banjo screen, however not concisely stated at each oil change (we can play with grammar), it is stated clearly that  in cases where "the condition of the oil is questionable or as to when the last oil change was performed".  This later statement implies that it is the responsiblity of the Dealer to verify the quality of the oil, as well as the history of oil changes.  And, the later statement does not imply it is up to the car owner to bring up this subject at the time of service; the burden is on the Dealer.   Unfortunately today, for a car owner, obtaining the complete documened history car repairs is difficult.  For example, I asked the Subaru dealership where our vehicle was purchased for a print out of the history.

They only offered the repair order they did when they accepted the vehicle in on a trade in and peformed the mininal pre-sales lot inspection, which did include an oil change but no mention of the banjo filter nor oil supply pipe noted in the TSB.  The Dealership stated they could only provide the service record they initiated because the previous car owner's records were considered confidential; I had asked if they could block out the previous car owner's personal information however they were unwilling to do this.  Burden of proof of compliance or non compliance of the "should" TSB "can" reside with the Dealer.

 

3) So with all of this in mind, we assume that Subaru has given an implied warranty that any used vehicle sold will drive down the road, provide there are proper oil inspections, oil changes, and banjo screen and oil supply pipe inspections, ...... because the TSB implies that when the vehicle is brought to a Dealer for oil service the Dealer has inspected the Banjo filter and Oil Supply pipe at some time.  The question is when did they do it?

Edited May 2, 2015 by cag

[lstevens76]

Ok, stop completely.

 

1.)  http://store.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/graphics/subaru_oil/02-103-07.pdf

 

2.)  "This bulletin is for informational purposes only."

 

3.)  "should be checked to make sure it is not clogged or restricted especially if the condition of the oil is questionable or as to when the last oil change was performed."

 

What it just said is it is an "INFORMATIONAL BULLETIN".

 

This doesn't mean a dealer has any reason to check if they don't want to, it's up the customer if they think something might be wrong.

 

It also states that if there are any questions on when oil changes have been done or if the oil is dirty, etc...  Did this ever occur?

 

Your trying to blame a dealer for not doing something, this isn't the dealers fault.

 

Have you even bothered to talk to Subaru of American and get there perspective about a 50k failure?  

 

And 7 hour seems ludicrous to me for checking a banjo bolt and screen when the entire assembly can be replaced in 2.7 hours.  ".7" not "7" hours seems more realistic.

[cag]

Stop? Are you the moderator?

 

Read the TSB again

1) "In any case, it is recommended...."

2) "In addition,....should be checked..."

That is all quite concise english.

 

Whom gets TSBs?  

Does the car manufacturer stiplulate that a car owner must keep track of TSB's. ?

How easy is it for a car owner to find the complete set of service records?

 

I find fault with some dealer(s), while some I find are fanstastic.

As the saying goes..... Sales sells the first car and Service sells the second.

 

Yes, I did talk to Subaru corporate.  Most of the discussion centered around the word "should".

 

The 7 hours was quoted to me by a Dealer Service Tech.

The .3 hours for a oil change was quoted by another Dealership; hence why I'd like to see it in writing.

And, another Dealership qouted non synthetic while another insisted on synthetic.

 

Just because this is my first post on this forum don't let it annoy you.

This is a discussion and if you have something positive in terms of OP..."specific flat rate time or dealer suggested time (published/official) for a Subaru mechanic to do an oil change on a 2.5 turbo vs a normally aspirated model, for year 2005"  I'd enjoy seeing it. 

Edited May 2, 2015 by cag

[lstevens76]

What I'm saying is a TSB does not inform that there is a problem.  Nor does it say that the problem "WILL" occur.  It says it can occur, and that it "should" be checked.

 

But the matter comes down to the TSB says "Informational".  This means it is not required to be checked, the TSB isn't even required to be read.  

 

I'll give an example I can personally reference by Chrysler.  There is a TSB for 93-99 (affects later years as well) 3.9L V6, 5.2L/5.9L v8 engines.  The plenum gaskets "CAN" fail.  

 

What does this TSB provide?  A list of symptoms when it does fail, how to test for it, and the fix (replace the plenum gasket which the cost is the customers responsability).

 

But if they don't have symptoms then they don't know that's wrong.  And the symptoms for this can also be caused by other issues as well.

 

I'm not questioning you being upset.  I'm not questioning whether there is a problem here, because I don't believe that turbo should have failed at 50k.  What I'm saying is based on the way that TSB is worded, the amount of miles, and the dealer probably had service records on the car, it wasn't a fault of the dealer.

 

Basically if they had service records, knew the oil changes had been done, with 50k on the motor, and read the TSB they would have no reason to suspect a problem with the Banjo Bolt filter at this time. 

 

This has nothing to do with a moderator, but based on what you said you were blaming the dealer.  I'm not saying the dealer was right or wrong, but the TSB is not the solution to putting blame somewhere especially after purchasing a used car that could have been massively hot rodded without your knowledge.

 

I could have misread what you were saying though, which is why I commented on contacting Subaru of America.  But you did come in here asking questions that left questions open about why.

 

Now, aside from all of that it sounds like you have a bad turbo.  A1 Auto had a blog post (can't find it right now and I have searched) talking about this exact problem along with a solution.  They removed that screen and put an in-line filter (think a spin off) on to avoid it happening again.  

 

Personally, before I buy any car I research common problems, cost of repairs, etc...  But that doesn't always work since when I bought my OBS one of the "LEAST" common problems was a bad Head Gasket, so I didn't fully check for one and I ended up with it.  But I purchased a "used car" so problems can happen and repairs are a lot less than a new car payment.

Edited May 2, 2015 by lstevens76

[lstevens76]

Ok, called my local dealer (Team Subaru in Nampa, ID).  Ended up at the parts department since one of the guys owns one.

 

To check the banjo bolt w/ filter in question for shop tech should be about 1.5 hours for just the one in the TSB.

 

Now here is the confusion, I guess there are 2 (one on either side) and to check both of them is a 7 hour job because the driver's side is much harder to check than the passenger side (where problems occur).

 

For a person to do it themselves he said it's about a 3 hour job.

Edited May 2, 2015 by lstevens76

[cag]

I appreciate the note on the 1.5 hours (the trouble banjo screen)... that is what I was searching for.

However, I need to get a printed copy out of Subaru's official hours statement.

 

I found out (got a used engine in my shop and the trashed engine is out in the car), the banjo is located on the forward side of the turbo.  A pita to reach but

I now see it can be done.  And, here is nice write up

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/diy-mods-and-installations/118474-banjo-union-bolt-removal-re-install.html

 

It is not a matter of what a TSB is, nor whether a Dealership 'feels' it has to abide by it.  Its what it communicates.

Subaru's has a check box on the top that says: IMPORTANT - All Service Personnel Should Read and Initial in the boxes provided.  I'd say that is a concise communication.

This is the manufacturer's formated document.  What the manufacturer uses to 'offically' communicate a notice to its franchies.

What is critical in the underlying discussion here is when does "should" happen.  Frankly, the TSB is very concise.  It goes beyond "you may want to know about a problem".

It goes beyond "this might a problem".  It clearly spells out that oil changes need to be more often, AND the banjo screen needs to be checked.  The statement  "if the condition of the oil is questionable or as to when the last oil change was performed", further clarifies the cause and affect. 

 

You can toss the Caveat emptor (buyer beware) on the table  However, if you know there is a potentional issue and you don't take action (the "should") then you are in fault.

What I mean by "you know" is the Dealer and the manufacturer.   The general or average car owner, whether that be a new car or used car,  can only do so much

research with regard to potential issues with a used car.  Average people research, in the past, Consumers Mag, and today Edmunds or other online sources.

They do not dig down into the Legacy GT forum and read the rants.  For exampe, Edmunds rates the 2005 Legacy with 5.25 stars, that is almost as good as it gets.

Subaru has always had a good rating.  This is our 2nd by the way.

 

In summary, this 50k mile blown engine vehicle (blown because the turbo tossed its cookies in the oil pan), is in very good to excellent condition otherwise.

The selling Dealer spoke highly of it.  The selling Dealer did their full pre sales inspection and an oil change, however they did not document a 1.5 hour banjo bolt check;

frankly if I was the selling Dealership and I read all the rants on the Subaru forums with issues on turbos in the 2.5 I would yank out every banjo and inspect them before

putting the cars on the lots.  But that is me.

 

And I'd say it might take a court order to get all the records; however that is another topic.

 

Susequent to the purchase, another Dealer replaced some leaky oil gaskets (might have been cam covers and some seal) but did not do an oil change.

The subsequent Dealer never asked the history nor asked if we ever checked the banjo filter.  However there is a TSB that clearly states "should".

 

I disagree that because the vehicle is "used"  that the Buyer is a fault for not doing 100% 'due dilegence' .

A car Dealer is the expert on the product they sell. There is an implied warranty  the vehicle can be driven normally (by the way it was driven and maintained normal, and there are no engine mods; stock).

 

However, if you want to debate, let's debate the word "should" in the TSB further.

 

For the moment though, the simple 1.5 hour to R&R a banjo bolt is the 2nd shot from the smoking gun.

Edited May 3, 2015 by cag

[1 Lucky Texan]

well, varying by model and production date, there 'could' be as many as 5 screens. And some of those are in very difficult to reach spots so, 7 hours may be true depending on how the question was asked.

[WoodsWagon]

A number of manufacturers are very careful about how their TSB's get published, I know the one I used to work for was. They were private about them for just the reason of the course you are following. They are only meant to be in house informational help guides to make diagnosis and repair in their dealerships go quicker when the company tech line has seen the same problem crop up a few times. They are not recalls. They are not warranty extensions. If a service writer was ambitious he could have recommended the TSB banjo bolt check to you when you were in for another service and upsold you the job.

 

That said you could see about asking the dealership, and then regional manager, about any goodwill coverage they could offer. If you split the cost so they cover parts, you cover labor, that is often a workable solution. Dealership is happy because labor is where they make their profit, subaru doesn't mind because the parts are cheap wholesale. And it takes some of the sting out of it for you.

 

You shouldn't need a whole engine? The filter should have caught most of the metal that came out of the turbo's bearings, and the impeller wheel is aluminum so if it ground into the compressor housing all those filings will pass though the engine without incident usually. How long did you drive it after the turbo failed?

 

It's a 10 year old car, and used turbos can be had for $200. Even with the "cookies in the pan" as you put it, it would be well worth tossing a used turbo on it. After you remove the banjo bolt filter of course.

Edited May 3, 2015 by WoodsWagon