Considering a Forester: Advice

[wharfrat]

Hi Folks,

 

I am a retired auto/diesel technician, ASE certified for many years and recently retired as an Automotive Technology instructor. My experience is European, Volvo  and VW/Audi trained and dealership experience. I now live way up in the mountains of Eastern Washington at the end of a muddy steep driveway on a dirt road. My 1996 Volvo 960 wagon is a great car but navigating to the house is way too hard on the car....witness the broken transverse leaf spring I had to replace outside in the snow. After a lot of research the obvious conclusion is an AWD Forester...maybe 98-04 vintage. I do all my own work although I won't rebuild an automatic trans, just swap it out. What do I need to look for particular to Subs? For example when replacing head gaskets do the head studs need replacing as they do on VW water boxers? Are there tell tale early warnings on HG failure like seep at the lower rear corners? Problems with the AWD? Are the electronics straightforward or have they added bits and pieces prone to failure or affecting systems? I need your advice to make this a successful transition.

 

Best Regards

 

Pat Hayes

Keller, WA

[Dj7291993]

Heads are bolts, not studs. You'll get mixed opinions on whether they need changed or not. If they go externally, where these ones tend to, you can see them pretty easily from the bottom.

CV axle boots are pretty common.

Electronics are pretty strait forward, sometimes different, but simple.

Also, don't use cheap brake rotors, they warp easily on these. NAPA stuff works well, but cheap stuff doesn't tend to last long.

[Turbone]

I own a 02 Foz 5spd, picked it up pretty cheap a few years ago after the owner put a pretty good divot in the front right corner.

I fixed it up and Its my daily and shop truck, I dont treat it kindly. It has 204k now, the original engine is untouched.

The HG weep, I know someday soon I'll prob have to replace them. Other than that, I have had zero issues, just standard maintenance issues.

 

 

[Rooster2]

Nice thing about Subies, is that they are made well with quality parts, and don't break often. Also, they are user friendly to work on. Belts, alt, P/S pump, A/C compressor are all up front, and sit up high, and easily worked on as needed. If you get a car with an auto tranny, it is good to know that there is a drain plug to drain the tranny fluid. Also, has an external tranny filter that looks exactly like a spin on oil filter. No need to drop the pan on the auto tranny, as the internal filter screen never clogs up requiring servicing. If the auto tranny ever does go bad, it has been broadly discussed on this forum that you are far better installing a used tranny from a wrecking yard. That doesn't happen very often, as the auto tranny is well made, and lasts a long time.

 

The AWD system is robust, and seldom causes trouble. Some guys change the dif fluids, but I have never done that, and never had any problems. The AWD system really needs all tires to be the same diameter, and no more then a quarter inch difference in tread depth. Otherwise, the tire circumference difference is hard on the AWD system.

 

My personal preference is an Outback over a Forester. I have driven both, and feel the added wheel base of the Outback provides a smoother ride, and is less choppy on rough pavement verses the Forester. 

 

There are a number of people on this forum, including myself, who have transitioned over from VW/Audi to Subaru. Seemed like VW/Audi drive trains held up, but I was forever replacing little stuff that would break on those cars. With Subarus, far less of the little stuff breaks. However, I do miss the way VWs a Audis drove. Suspension set up on those cars, and steering feel was/is great.

 

Good luck on your Subaru search

[dwwataz]

I've had a number Subarus; 2 legacy wagons, forester suv, impreza coupe, built WRX.

Spark plugs suck on some models but timing belt is right there instead of a fender. Only non maintenance problems I've had has been self inflicted...

Taking a slammed WRX mudding with ecu in stock location(floor under passenger's foot). Ask me how that turned out. Blew my rear diff, blew a couple clutches and my 5 speed was all but missing 3 gears. Axles and bearings were replaced last year at 12 years old..not bad if you ask me. My coilovers are going but again, coilovers do that.

Other than that..Buy good rotors and pads...Some stuff you can skimp on but brakes and suspension is something I wont. Too much chance for personal injury there for you and others.

I don't really know the 98-04 Foresters but 02-03 WRX 2.0 were known for spun bearings.  I believe 04-07 STI 2.5(maybe the later WRX 2.5 too?) had piston ring issues.

With the extensive modifications I've done, I've yet to experience any electrical issues in any of them. One bad window switch in the WRX, but still using all original engine sensors, all relays, fuses, etc.

I also recommend adding gear oil after changing your clutch...Again, ask me how that turned out.

Edited May 1, 2015 by dwwataz

[AdventureSubaru]

On those motors the head gaskets will weep long before they go. I'd say most I've seen over 100k have some visible seepage. The primary sign of failing headgaskets will be bubbles in the coolant overflow while the car is running.

 

Unless you have reason to question the head bolts, go ahead and reuse them. I've tossed some that were on the rusty side but if they are in good shape, no reason to replace them. Just dip in oil and use em.

 

When test driving, check for torque bind of the transmission by driving slow tight circles and feel for shuttering like a truck in 4wd on pavement. It's usually fixable but still a good check to know what you're getting into.

 

Timing belts at 110k and every 80k-ish thereafter. Gates kits are good and a few others recommended out there.

[efseiler]

What they say about the gaskets are probably true...but it all depends how you drive it...what you use it for.  Cars are almost like horses...if you abuse them they will kick the sh*t out of you.

 

I think regular oil changes using suitable brands (possibly investing in the right additives) will help to keep those engines alive and gaskets intact much longer than someone who thinks chemistry is a bunch of bull.

 

I have a Forester with the Phase II engine and I use additives in the oil and gas plus what Subaru recommends in the coolant with success. 

 

Of course, coming up with positive results (what with all the skeptics screaming in your ears) can take years of research but if you use your nose and brain even an amateur can figure out what works.

 

 

Just like a famous scientist once said:  "We have no money for equipment...we will have to use our heads!"

[idosubaru]

replacing the head bolts is pointless.  so everyone is right - if you want to replace them, do so. 

but in a more general sense i'd hesitate from borrowing techniques from one area and needlessly applying them to another - a bad approach in general.   the better approach is to learn who to listen to/significant experience regarding a particular platform.  in this case that means replacing head bolts gains nothing - but there are well known steps towards consistent EJ25 headgasket repairs.

 

1998 Foresters (and 1996-1999 legacy/outback) EJ25's:

leak internally and blow exhaust gases into the coolant.  this causes instant and random overheating.

they were doing this under warranty 15 years ago at low mileages - many people don't know this and make false assumptions otherwise.

due to the instant and random nature of the overheating these blocks also have significant numbers of lower end issues.

 

1999+ Foresters (and 2000+ legacy/outback) EJ25's:

leak externally you can see the leaks, coolant or oil.

Initial external coolant leaks of OEM installed headgaskets will go away 100% (nearly) of the time with Subaru Coolant conditioner (note every qualifying descriptor I added - very intentional).

you can generally run them 50,000+ miles by simply making sure they don't get low in fluids - they start out leaking veeeery slowly and progress over long periods of time.

they will not overheat.

 

*replaced gaskets have alternate and varying failure modes - lots of variations to the above once the gaskets have been replaced.

 

Headgasket Repair:

1. resurface the heads (and block if so equipped)

2.  use EJ25 Turbo headgaskets (on 99+ foresters)

 

1999's have a delayed engagement into drive issue - readily fixed by an additive (which i generally say avoid but i's a good fit in this case)

1999's also have quirky speedometers - easy soldering fix - 30 minutes or less

ocassionally 1998/2000's will have those two issues as well.

 

check for torque bind in the transmission.

Edited May 2, 2015 by grossgary

[wharfrat]

Thanks for all the advice, y'all have been really helpful. Every car has its quirks and no amount of shop manual reading will tell you that in order to replace "x" you have to do "y and z" as well...either that or buy some ridiculously expensive tool from Snap-On. I expect to buy a car with 150-200K and get another 150K out of it.  Head gaskets sound pretty straight forward and several other threads have discussed quality issues. I don't mind spending for good parts. With all the new emphasis on torque-to-yield fasteners and my experience with VW I have been burned at least once too often trying to reuse head bolts/studs so I' cautious about that. Turbone....are you really pulling that two axle trailer in the photo? That's one of my issues out here as I'm building an addition to and a roof over the Airstream and the nearest lumber yard is 75 miles away over the mountain. Use the Volvo and overload it or use the ancient F250 4X diesel and break the bank. Anyway, the search is on. BTW, any thoughts on a 3.0 Outback?

 

Best Regards

 

Pat Hayes,

Keller, WA.

[ccrinc]

3.0 (EZ30) engine is an exceptionally solid engine with timing chains instead of belts.  As long as they get absolutely faithful oil changes and the cooling system is well maintained, they run for a very long time.  In the time period you're considering, the only vehicles with the EZ30 are the Tribeca and the Outback LL Bean. 

 

Since the engine oil is what lubricates the timing chain tensioners and idlers (they're internal instead of external), you probably will want to try to verify the service records of any vehicle you consider with that engine.  There is a double metal timing cover instead of plastic on these. 104 (IIRC) bolts which hold it on:  they must be taken off and put back on in a very specific sequence. 

 

Gas mileage isn't as good as an EJ25 SOHC of course, but damn, they are one smoooooth running engine with good power.  Otherwise, the cars that have the EZ30 are no different from the EJ25s except in trim levels.

 

Emily