98 Legacy limited 2.5 would R & R of engine be worth it...

[witzkim]

I've got a 1998 Subaru Legacy GT limited 2.5 Sedan with 170,000 miles on it. My daughter drove it home from school (2.5 miles) making a horrendous noise. Had a mechanic who "specializes in Subarus" come and look at it to diagnose- after repetatively starting and checking eventually the vehicle stopped running altogether. He advised that he believed that the timing belt broke but if I towed it to his shop he would be able to tear it down to make sure no further damage. Estimate approx. $800-$1,000 to R & R belt, pulley(s), tensioner and water pump. Once at his shop and after further investigation he advised more damage and recommended replace heads, oil pump, timing belt stuff, and he would completely rebuild the engine for approx. $2800.00 or he would buy the vehicle as is from me for $800.00. He claims that because this vehicle is a high demand vehicle and that after putting a new engine in it it would be "like new" and I would have no problem getting $4500-$5000 for it if I chose to sell it. The car otherwise is in very good condition interior and exterior (only has a couple of minor dings on passenger door panel and scraped paint on bumper), well taken care (of excluding ignoring recommended replacement of timing belt prior to 100,000 miles). It is bright red in color and I just sunk $800 for 4 new all season tires less than 2,000 miles ago.I may be female,but I.'m not totally ignorant when it comes to cars except in this case i'm not sure what to do.

1. Replace engine and keep the car for my own hoping to drive it another 170,000 miles.

2. Take the $800 and put it toward a newer used vehicle for my daughter who is going off to college, but insists that "now she wants anything but a Subaru Legacy" (She's still learning that all vehicles need to be maintained and sometimes it gets expensive"). (Equalling a total loss.)

3. Sink the $3,000 into it trusting mechanic that I'll be able to turn around and easily sell it walking away with $1500-$2000 to put towards another vehicle.

 

Would the resale value really be that high after rebuilding the engine and replacing heads with new? I'm so frustrated right now- I'm sharing my car wuth daughter, luckily for the sharing part  I work seasonally at a ski resort and I'm not working now. Unluckily I'm not working now, so money is really tight, and majority of savings were supposed to go to help pay for her college. [Note she is working 2 jobs and enrolled fulltime at the community college and does help contribute financially.]

 

This amount of money to spend at this time is so much, I would just feel better if I had some other unbiased opinions regarding the costs quoted and suggested retail prices by people who are up on Subaru issues and have nothing to gain by lying to me, (not that I've ever been lied to a mechanic before haha). I do believe he's giving me a good Price on the work. All I have to do is drive 100 miles to pick up and pay for the heads and a new oil pump and bring to him.

 

lease any advice would be greatly appreciated, and of course I need to make a decision ASAP.

[AdventureSubaru]

Sounds like the bearings went out on the timing sprocket and it has bent valves.

 

That seems a little high on the estimated resale value. Recent headgaskets etc. are a selling point but I would only credit it to be just a little above kelley blue book value.

 

Conventional Subaru wisdom for this car and others with the 2.5 motor is to locate a good used 1995-1998 Ej22 motor (Usually $300-$1000 depending on where you get it, mileage etc). and install it to replace the 2.5 motor. (the 1990-1994 motors work too but you'll also need an intake manifold from a 95-98 Ej22 motor. Those 2.5 motors like yours made better horsepower but were not very dependable and are far more complex and expensive to fix. You'll save a lot of $$$ and have a car that is 20 horsepower less but far more dependable. The EJ25 motors (In your car right now) usually needed headgasket replacement around 100,000 miles and would fail again or burn up rod bearings between 140-200,000 miles. The ej22 will commonly last 300,000+ miles without any major servicing. Well worth a little less pep at the throttle.

 

I can help you source good motors in the area as I live in the bay area and regularly see these motors pop up for sale or in cars being parted.

 

Car-part.com is a great place to source it.

 

You'll pay the cost of the motor, labor for a remove and install and a set of exhaust gakets/oil/coolant and that's it. For about half the quoted mechanic cost,you'll have something more dependable and just as valuable.

Edited May 2, 2015 by AdventureSubaru

[golucky66]

In my experience, a 98 Subaru Limited in good condition would sell to the right buyer for 2500. You might be able to get 3000-3500 with a brand new engine in it but I don't see you being able to sell the car for 4500 easily, like he said. 

As for the work being done and the quote. I personally don't know enough about the damages that are caused on these engine to give you an accurate answer. My only thing is that you could probably find a junkyard engine for around 600-1000$ and have that put in Might be a bit cheaper... But from there it's up to you and if you want to keep the car or not.

[lstevens76]

Being in Lake Tahoe he could be right about the sale price.  In Boise I would say $3,000 to $3,500, but in McCall, ID (ski town/lake/tourist town like Tahoe) I could see that going for $4,000+.

 

That being said I think the guy is kind of out there on pricing.  

 

1.) What is his hourly rate (might be time to find a different mechanic).

 

2.)  How did he come up with $2,800 in repairs?  What's the breakdown?

 

The total time to do both heads (without pulling the engine) is 13.7 hours.  If he goes this route your talking no more than $1,400 in labor (and that is way high for a non-dealership shop).  

 

A full R&R is 9.1 hours and a 2.2 replacement can be had 66 Miles away (car-part.com) for $900.  That should only be around $2,000, but if he's charging $100 an hour then your probably looking at $2,300 including parts (tb and water pump).

 

You can look farther and find other 2.2 or 2.5 replacements fairly cheap as well, or cheaper if you wait for them to ship it.

[AdventureSubaru]

Here's a good $400. motor in sacramento. 1999 was a crossover year. It's a match if it's an EJ22 motor or DOHC EJ25

 

http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/5004077478.html

[lstevens76]

I think what we are all saying is it's worth fixing if you can get it done for a reasonable price. 

[idosubaru]

Another option if the gooberish state of CA has it's head out of the ground, is an EJ22 swap.

http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/111-gen-1-1995-1999/248329-ej22-ej18-swap-into-ej25d-dohc-vehicle.html

 

$500 EJ22

$200 timing kit/parts
$500 engine swap

Sell old engine for $500

 

You just repaired your car for under $1,000 and it'll be more reliable than the original EJ25 - done right, another 100,000 miles is possible.

 

That repair price sounds about right - $1,200 - $2,000 is an average headgasket job - add a bit more for the additional work/bent valves and $2,800 is reasonable.  Bent valves is no joke.

You've got a lot of machine shop work and valves are expensive.

Or you're buying used heads.

Edited May 2, 2015 by grossgary

[idosubaru]

I have a set of used heads I might be able to sell you if he can't find anything local.   let me know what prices he is finding and if it's expensive i'll come in under that.

www.car-part.com

[idosubaru]

wait....

 

you can use 1995 EJ22 automatic EJ22 heads and intake manifold as well. 

those will bolt right to your EJ25 engine and probably be significantly cheaper.

it's plug and play, direct swap, no different than the job he is planning on doing.

[matt167]

I did a 99 sus. Same car with outback suspension. I had maby 2,500 in it including a $750 purchase price on the car with a 2.5 that needed head gaskets l. I did a brand new timing belt, idlers, water pump and a brand new tensioner and new head gaskets on it just cause it was out. That was with a 1996 ej22e with 100k miles.. I also replaced cats and manifold with brand new parts. All my own efforts tho. They are not rocket science like shops will make you think they are.

[ccrinc]

I'd find a different mechanic.  I'm also betting on it being run low on oil and seizing the engine.

Any decent "Subaru specialist" should not have to repeatedly start and stop an engine to tell whether it's bad tensioners/idler or a rod knock.    I've seen way too many mechanics/shops do this just to low ball the customer on buying a valuable car, then do a cheapo repair and turn around, selling the car for an inflated price.  No wonder our industry gets a bad rap!

 

From one woman to another: do the 2.2 swap, preferably a '95 2.2.  You'll get the reliability you need at a better price than rebuilding that problematic 2.5 engine. When you get it smogged, don't tell them anything about it.  The two engines look nearly identical from the top unless they check the stamping on the block and the number of cams.  From what I've been told, as long as it has an obviously Subaru engine in it and looks stock, that's as far as they know to go on it.

 

Emily

[lmdew]

X2 on Emily's points.  

 

a 2.2 swap is the way to go.

[Rooster2]

X3, my 99 Outback has a 95, 2.2 motor swapped in it. Work was done several years back. That 2.2 motor runs great. It is plug and play.

[witzkim]

Thanks to all of you for your input. I only wish my computer hadn't crashed shortly my post. I just now got my computer back up making it possible

to read your posts. Unfortunately, unbeknownst to me- my husband gave the mechanic the go ahead on a complete rebuild job. I found out when he came

to me for the money to go pick up the heads and oil pump at another shop in Placerville. I had been telling him all along that I wanted to see a

a detailed written diagnosis of what he had found, and then a detailed estimate with a breakdown of expected parts and labor for the job BEFORE we

give an OK! Because I had nothing in writing, I didn't fork over any cash. I instead suggest that we should call & see if we could pay for "those parts"

with our Am. Express Credit Card before driving to Placerville.(That was Friday- our ride didn't show in time so we didn't make it).

Like I said before I am not an idiot, (and I used to work front office at an auto repair shop) so I'm familiar with my rights as a consumer to recieve a

written estimate that I need to sign authorizing specific repairs before the auto shop begins those repairs. It's just good business practice anyway.

So today, (before my computer was up) my husband came to me insisting I give him the $1,000 cash so he could give it to his friend, who came to our house

to pick it up for his brother who is the mechanic and owns the shop, because they are going to drive to Placerville themselves tomorrow to pickup the

parts so he can finish the job and get the vehicle back to us. Needless to say I'm livid that I still have received nothing in writing and rather than

it for me, my husband yells because "I shouldn't worry about it" "we're not going to get screwed" and he "trusts his friend" and "so should I"--

FAMOUS LAST WORDS!!! I quickly wrote up a detailed proof of cash payment for the parts with the name of shop and told my husband it needed to be signed

the shop owner and returned to me to get the cash, along with a matching cash recieved for his records. I recieved my signed receipt back within the

hour. At this point, I've been carless for nearly 2 weeks/ I'm down $1000/ My car is undrivable and in pieces/ I still don't have my written estimate/

and I've stopped talking to my husband.

So tomorrow, I will break my silence and attempt to keep my cool while I try to relay some of the information and suggestions that you all have

been so kind to share. Hopefully it's not too late to look into the EJ22 swap. I'll let you know if I've convinced my husband that there are other

Subaru resources out there and if we need anything or decide to sell it. Or maybe I should just divorce him and then I'd only be out half as much--

Just Kidding.

 

.

[Rooster2]

Fully agree with your business sense regarding getting a complete estimate of repair cost. That limits the number of unexpected bad surprises, that other wise can be fall you.

 

I agree with others that throwing good money to repair a 2.5 motor with 170K miles is not worthwhile. A good used 2.2 motor should be very reliable, and serve you well.

[lstevens76]

If the repair is done right the car will probably see another 150k+ miles.  The difference here is that when you research the EJ25 and head gaskets you get mixed opinions.  Is this because the jobs weren't done right?   Or is it because of the engine?  I don't think the research has been done to show it either way.  If it has been done that research is buried pretty deep out there.

 

If you end up without a choice, just make sure he uses Subaru OEM Head Gaskets (newest superseded part number).

 

Hope this all works out for you.

[ccrinc]

IMHO, she should just bitchslap her husband!

[AdventureSubaru]

reading the original post if the mechanic can and does "completely rebuild the engine" then the cost is not that far off, and assuming he does it right, the engine should be ready to last another 120-150k before large scale work is required.

 

Make sure that a complete rebuild of the block is in order here. The rod bearings on these motors were small and in my experience rarely lasted past 200k. If the mechanic is going for the quick fix of new timing kit and new/rebuilt heads, it's just a very expensive band aid. The car will likely develop a rod knock in the next 30,000 miles and you'll again be looking at tearing the engine apart to fix it.

 

If it is indeed a true motor "rebuild" then you're not getting taken at that price. I would still consider it less desirable than an EJ22 swap due largely to cost. But if the motor gets rebuilt properly, any mechanics shop will include a warranty on the work and you wont have to worry about engine failure for a time since it would be their problem.

 

If however, he is charging you $2800 for the quick fix, he's not crazy on the price (I've heard of far worse in this crazy state) given the time, parts etc. involved, but you are not looking at a long term solution as the motor is still likely to fail before 200k

[AdventureSubaru]

I guess the other advice i'd have is that the value of marital bliss vs marital strife. My wife and I get so frustrated at each other over things far less expensive than a $2800 car repair bill. Eventually one or both of us have to bite the bullet.

 

if your husband is dead set on doing it his way, it may not be ideal but you'll get the car going again, and if it does need help further down the road, then it may be time to look at a 2.2 swap. if you can talk him into it, it will likely save you some $$$ and keep the car running longer.

 

But I've always believed that family is far more important than money and possessions. Letting him do it his way wont be the end of the world. I've been there, been stubborn, made a doofus of myself and apologized later and I'm grateful that my wife puts up with me in those times and loves me anyway.

 

So choose your battle and how much it's worth in dollars vs. frustration. And whatever happens to the motor - 2.2 or a rebirth of that 2.5 we can help give you some helpful tips and advice to keep it running as long and healthy as possible.

[Olnick]

Very wise counsel, Adventure.

 

I think you are absolutely right, witzkim.  But at this point it might be best to "roll with it" and pray that it works out for the best!   Hope all goes well for you