Buy Rebuilt 2002 Forester w/170k?

[mthoudek]

Hello,

 

We're looking at a 2002 Forester with a rebuilt engine. The shop deals exclusively in foreign vehicles, they have a great reputation around town, and they deal exclusively in foreign cars. They also offer a three-month, 3,000 mile warranty.

 

They are currently asking $6,200. New tires, sunroof, leather seats, new front breaks, and the body is in beautiful shape (the "best they've seen for a 2002") + the rebuilt engine.

 

The price is high, no doubt, but we're not sure how much we should reasonably be paying given the condition of the body (pretty much perfect) and the rebuilt engine. Kelley Blue Book has it listed for $4030 at good condition "fair purchase price," $4614 for a "perfect condition" vehicle, and with a suggested ticket price of $5110. 

 

A few questions:  

 

1. how much should we reasonably be paying given all of the above (the condition, the rebuild, etc.)?  

 

2. what questions should we ask about the rebuilt engine? (they've done the belts and the head gasket)

 

3.  is the high-mileage worth the purchase given that they've rebuilt the engine? They think it still has 100k in it.

 

4. what else might we be wary of for a Forester with this mileage on it (rebuild aside)?

 

Any advice would be much appreciated. We're in Iowa and are poor graduate students. We're new to the Subaru world but are excited to purchase our first given the culture. We are also mostly naive in the way of cars, regrettably.  Thanks.

--Matthew

Edited May 8, 2015 by mthoudek

[matt167]

that's a joke right?.. If its a rebuilt title, its worth 50% less than book, and even if it is not, there's no way that they can ask $6k. A finance company is only going to go retail plus tax so there looking at taking $2k less or cash deal, which is unlikely.. I'd offer $3,500 and tell them take it or leave it

 

adding. U did not mention miles, but repairs do not equal more value. Often they equal more headaches. Subaru engine tolerances are very tight. Whose to say it WA rebuilt to spec.. If its over 150k miles, they are totally nuts, and if its under 150k miles, nothing should have gone wrong to require engine work, beyond head gasket weeping

Edited May 8, 2015 by matt167

[montana tom]

Mathew; If its as nice as you claim I wouldn't pay more than 5000.00 for it. Remind them it is thirteen year old car!  Head gaskets & timing belt are not even close to a "rebuild" on the engine... rings and bearings should be replaced & heads should be gone thru , that is a rebuilt engine.  Just putting on a timing belt and head gaskets is just preventative maintenance on this motor. Did they replace all the timing belt idlers ? the tensioner ? the waterpump ? (ASK) What about the cam and crankshaft seals ? (ASK) New tires & brakes are good but what did they replace on the brakes ? Just the pads or the rotors ,pads and calipers? What shape are the rear brakes in ? 170,000 is just broke in on a subu,  my 2000 outback wagon has 258,000 on the original motor and other than timing belt & parts + the head gaskets it is all original.I would take that car across country today, that's how good a subi is. Yes, I would hope that it has at least another 100,000 in it, even if all they changed was the timing components & water pump. It sounds like a nice car but unless that motor had a real rebuild by professional rebuilder, there is no way I would pay what they are asking. 

Edited May 8, 2015 by montana tom

[ccrinc]

What ^^he^^ said.

[mthoudek]

Matt and Tom,

 

Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated. They did a full rebuild on the engine (rings, bearings, water pump) - not just the head gaskets and timing belt. I should have been more clear about that.  I will ask about the cam and crank shafts, but I get the impression that they are thorough. From what we hear they are the best foreign dealer in the county and some say the state, so although I am new to the area here, the trust element is important to me and word on the street is that these guys are great. 

 

I will be sure to ask further questions as per the points you bring up about the rebuild, Tom. The same goes for the breaks. It is technically a rebuilt title, but it was really just some front-end damage due to a collision and there was no impact on the engine itself. They didn't rebuild due to damage; they simply rebuild (to whatever extent necessary) all of their inventory before selling. The body has since been fully rebuilt up front as well - car looks great.

 

QUESTION: Should I have other concerns or questions about a 13-year old Forester?  Are the fuel pump, catalytic converter, and wheel bearings things that I should be concerned about giving me troubles in the near future?  Anything else with these 02 Foresters? 

 

Of course, re-built titles should have a lower value. The CarFax says $2300 below book price ($4k). That would take me to $1730 - but they have put $1600 into the body + whatever the rebuild cost (they are getting me the work sheets today with the details).  I am going to shoot for $4700. Does that sound reasonable against a $6300 asking price given all of these other details and if everything else (breaks, water pump, etc.) checks out?  

 

I am trying to learn more about cars as I go along here. We've had a Hyundai Santa Fe for the past few years but was just lost it in an accident, and we are trying to get ourselves into a Subaru.  That said, all of your feedback is very helpful.  Thank you. 

[mthoudek]

Thanks for the confirmation, Subaru Whisperer. 

Edited May 8, 2015 by mthoudek

[montana tom]

A rebuilt title ???  OH , that changes things in my mind. Your resale will be spoob if you buy it. Not to say you shouldn't, but think long and hard about how long you will keep this car ! Nobody but a dealer can get any kind of money out of a rebuilt title. Are you sure it has a rebuilt title (this means that an insurance company totaled it) If you mean they repaired some body damage and rebuilt the motor and the state was not involved then your ok but if it got totaled (no matter how little damage ) then as a first time buyer I would run away from this one and keep looking.  Craigs list has all sorts of deal that pass thru, if your "automotive illiterate" then find a friend or just hire a mechanic (familiar with subi's) to go with you to look a private deal over before buying. Also ask here for advice before buying. 

[mthoudek]

Thanks again, Tom.

 

Yes, it was declared a total loss and is indeed a salvage/re-built title. We would have no intention of trying to re-sell it, and so we would probably hold on to it until it doesn't drive any longer. Does that change anything?  My concern, as I'm sure it is for most buyers, is trust, and that is definitely a big factor in why I am drawn to these guys (given everything we hear about them around town) - especially given that you just don't know what you are getting through private sellers, whether via Craigslist or otherwise.  We also only have liability, so buying a salvage title should have no bearing on whether or not this will affect our insurance. 

 

I'm not pushing back against you here, just trying to provide a bit more context.  Thanks again for the feedback.  

[matt167]

It changes the book value to half. Lots of subaris get totaled and rebuilt but they become cheaper after, not more expensive.offer $3,500 and even that's generous. I'd offer $2,800 or walk of I were lookong

[montana tom]

Not at all ,just trying to be informative to you.  I bought and still own a 94 legacy wagon with a salvage title,I paid 6000.00 for it but it was only 4 years old with low miles at the time. It's my ranch wagon now ,looks rather shabby but has over 300,000 on the original 2.2 motor, hauls feed ,fence posts , all my deer and even one elk (in pieces) road home in it. As long as you plan on keeping it in the family forever (subi's rarely die) and have shopped around as far as driving imprezas , legacys ,outbacks to be sure that the forester is the model for you. If you like the car and can get a price you're happy with then go for it. If they won't come down in price then just look at other cars at the same dealer. The right subi is out there ,maybe this is the one maybe not...   good luck

[Rooster2]

It changes the book value to half. Lots of subaris get totaled and rebuilt but they become cheaper after, not more expensive.offer $3,500 and even that's generous. I'd offer $2,800 or walk of I were lookong

I fully agree with Matt. It makes no sense to spend really good money for a car with a rebuilt title. You have no idea how bad the car was after being totaled. Perhaps even the uni-body has been bent. I am guessing the engine work was necessary after motor was damaged from a traffic accident. You have no idea if this car was rebuilt to meet safe car standards. My best advise is to only buy this car on the cheap, for around $3000, or less. Please don't let your emotions for this pretty car sway you to spend too much for something with a very questionable past.

[mthoudek]

Thanks for the advice everyone.  I will let you all know how it goes down. We found out today that they are working on a 2003 Forester (non-salvage title) and are dropping a 40k motor in it, but I am unsure of any other details at this point.  Either way, I appreciate your time and feedback.  Enjoy the weekend. 

[lstevens76]

Ok, this is just a quick search local to me, but I'm in a larger area it appears.

 

http://boise.craigslist.org/search/sss?sort=rel&minAsk=50&maxAsk=6000&query=forester

 

 

Now, here's the search for your area and this is what caught my eye:

 

https://iowacity.craigslist.org/search/sss?sort=rel&minAsk=50&maxAsk=6000&query=forester

 

http://desmoines.craigslist.org/ctd/5002319516.html

 

http://dubuque.craigslist.org/cto/4998255827.html

 

http://waterloo.craigslist.org/ptd/5006285820.html  - I suspect this is less than $4,000 in body work so $2,000 more for 6 years newer?  It doesn't say if it has a branded title, but it may not have one based on the damage.

 

 

What I'm saying is unless this one is perfect for you in every way, I would keep looking.  They are into that rig a lot of money and they won't be selling it cheap (I would suspect a minimum of $4,000).  For there bottom dollar you could get another vehicle with a clean/clear title and completely fix anything wrong with it.  Or one of those foresters was only $3,199 with a clear title.

 

Other option is to also look in nearby areas/states on craigslist, cars.com, autotrader.com, etc....

[Rooster2]

Thanks for the advice everyone.  I will let you all know how it goes down. We found out today that they are working on a 2003 Forester (non-salvage title) and are dropping a 40k motor in it, but I am unsure of any other details at this point.  Either way, I appreciate your time and feedback.  Enjoy the weekend. 

Guess I am confused, as to why the owner is selling cars that either had major engine work, or motor replaced?? Subarus seldom need major engine work, or engine replacement unless they were wrecked, or poorly maintained, usually to the point of running out of oil, which will destroy the motor. If me, I would look for other sources for a good used Forester. Are you sure this company has a good reputation for selling quality cars at market price??

[lstevens76]

Guess I am confused, as to why the owner is selling cars that either had major engine work, or motor replaced?? Subarus seldom need major engine work, or engine replacement unless they were wrecked, or poorly maintained, usually to the point of running out of oil, which will destroy the motor. If me, I would look for other sources for a good used Forester. Are you sure this company has a good reputation for selling quality cars at market price??

 

The EJ251 that the 02 and 03 have had head gasket issues.  So for a forester having major engine work is not uncommon and would need to be done.

 

The body work and a salvage title on the other hand makes no sense, unless they are a "buy here pay here" and repoed it after the wreck, etc...  

 

As for the Engine stuff you can pick up the bad head gasket ones cheap as a consumer ($500 to $1000), now think about the fact a dealer isn't going to pay what a consumer might pay......................

[mthoudek]

Rooster, you are correct - some of their "lower priced" inventory is bought at auction and then re-done in house.  As for your first point, they deal with many of the same customers on trade-in deals, so the engine work that they do is mostly precautionary (for example, they do the gaskets on cars approaching the 150K mark, and do any other preventive work like this as well).  Apparently, they have done 115 Subis and have not had any returns -- again, they are highly recommended by pretty much everyone I speak with for the work that they do (and the three-month warranty is nice, too).  

 

lstevens76, thank you for passing these links along - much appreciated. Being mostly "automotively illiterate," I fear buying cars that need a lot of work, as I am unsure of what kind of money I will need to put into them after the purchase among other concerns based in my general ignorance.  

 

The 2003 Forester that they are dropping the 40k engine in had 180k on it (acquired by them through a trade-in) and so they decided to just put the new engine in as it needed a lot of work.  I will find out more specs and get back to you all. 

 

Again, I am feeling much better having received all of your feedback and assistance -- everything that I hear about the Subaru community is certainly proving true.  Thanks again!

Edited May 8, 2015 by mthoudek

[lstevens76]

Here is the problem with this statement: "The 2003 Forester that they are dropping the 40k engine in had 180k on it (acquired by them through a trade-in) and so they decided to just put the new engine in as it needed a lot of work.  I will find out more specs and get back to you all."

 

This immediately tells me it wasn't maintained if it "needed a lot of work".

 

Here is what you are potentially facing with any car:

Sensors (check engine light usually) - although these "should" be fixed with what they are doing.

Vacuum lines - again with this they should be fixed

 

Now to the bad stuff:

 

Struts - if you don't do them yourself your looking at a potential $500+ charge to get them done if they are bad/going bad.

 

Differential/transmission - if the engine is bad enough they feel the need to replace it.............

 

CV Axles - condition of boots, etc...

 

Wheel Bearings

 

Ball Joints

 

Basically you need to worry about your suspension and all the drivetrain they aren't messing with.

 

On average you should be able to find a good mechanic who can do a thorough pre-purchase inspection for less than $100.  Any vehicle you look at (don't care about rep) should have an inspection before you buy it based on your knowledge.  This protects you and the person you buy it from.

 

Here's a search of "nearby areas" on Craigslist to give you a price area:

 

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/cto/5015599846.html

 

http://madison.craigslist.org/ctd/5014652852.html

 

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/ctd/5012803107.html

 

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/ctd/5010229608.html

 

Just note, all of those are under $6k and all have clean titles.

[Rooster2]

Here is the problem with this statement: "The 2003 Forester that they are dropping the 40k engine in had 180k on it (acquired by them through a trade-in) and so they decided to just put the new engine in as it needed a lot of work.  I will find out more specs and get back to you all."

 

This immediately tells me it wasn't maintained if it "needed a lot of work".

 

Here is what you are potentially facing with any car:

Sensors (check engine light usually) - although these "should" be fixed with what they are doing.

Vacuum lines - again with this they should be fixed

 

Now to the bad stuff:

 

Struts - if you don't do them yourself your looking at a potential $500+ charge to get them done if they are bad/going bad.

 

Differential/transmission - if the engine is bad enough they feel the need to replace it.............

 

CV Axles - condition of boots, etc...

 

Wheel Bearings

 

Ball Joints

 

Basically you need to worry about your suspension and all the drivetrain they aren't messing with.

 

On average you should be able to find a good mechanic who can do a thorough pre-purchase inspection for less than $100.  Any vehicle you look at (don't care about rep) should have an inspection before you buy it based on your knowledge.  This protects you and the person you buy it from.

 

Here's a search of "nearby areas" on Craigslist to give you a price area:

 

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/cto/5015599846.html

 

http://madison.craigslist.org/ctd/5014652852.html

 

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/ctd/5012803107.html

 

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/ctd/5010229608.html

 

Just note, all of those are under $6k and all have clean titles.

Having bought my 99 OBW with 148K on the odometer, and now 8 years later, I have 224K on the odometer. You are so correct in that I have had to replace all four struts, ball joints, tie rods, wheel bearing, half shafts, and head gaskets during my ownership. It is just the typical repair stuff you are going to get on a car over 10 years old with a lot of miles on the odometer. So, expect these repairs on any older Subie, and really any other older car, no matter what make. Don't get me wrong, I still love my Subie, it is one heck of a car.

[idosubaru]

Quit playing in the toystore and look for a Forester with a blown engine and install a CCR engine with an actual big boy warranty - 36,000 mile/3 year.

 

$2,000 forester/outback + $4,000 rebuilt CCR engine install - and you've got a non-wrecked/non-salvage/real warranty vehicle for the same asking price.

 

1.  high priced, high mileage, salvage title, no warranty - that's a lot of strikes

2.  warranty - they give 25% of a Subaru warranty and 8% of an engine rebuilder warranty

* Subaru gives 12 months/12,000 miles on any repair - so that's 25% of a Subaru warranty

* Engine rebuilders (CCR for instance) give 36 months/36,000 miles I think it is:  that's 8% of comparable warranties.

 

That being said - I'll differ from everyone else on salvage titles - I wouldn't hesitate to buy a salvage title vehicle.  I'd be pickier, but I wouldn't write it off.  I'd prefer before/after pictures and assess from there, or in your case ask someone familiar with repairing wrecked cars about a given type of impact.

1.  They generally aren't terrible to resell - I've had no problem rebuilding/selling wrecked Subarus. A professional shop can certainly surpass my skill set.  It scares off a certain percentage of buyers and a lot of the ones that would typically pay top dollar. So it does affect the market, and yet once a vehicle gets up there in age - somewhere between 5-10 years old that stuff starts to matter less in terms of price.  Depends on a lot of variables - damage/honesty/seller/local market/age - so there's no set percentage - but it's not terribly high on a 13 year old car.

 

2.  A rebuilt car isn't the end of the world - granted I'd prefer clear information, before and after pictures - which I've shown people when I sell one that's been wrecked/repaired. I've never had issues with the ones I've rebuilt, some have over 100,000 miles since rebuild/total/salvage/recertification.  I get it though - I totally understand and in a lot of ways it's probably good advice for people to steer clear of them. Heck I wouldn't want too many people okay with rebuilt cars - it would probably attract more sketchy people than not to the selling side of the market otherwise.

[mthoudek]

Hello again, everyone.

 

One additional question here about pricing and shopping for a used Subi. Here are the details/specs:

 

2003 Forester XS.  170k on the body, but with a 40k engine in it (a 2L engine as opposed to the XS's 2.5 - avoids piston slap problems, increases gas mileage a bit?)

* No accidents

* Not a salvage title

* 3 month/3,000 mile warranty

* The engine was replaced because the previous owner ran it out of oil

* Leather, sunroof, heated seats

* Interior is in great shape

 

The dealer did the following:

* New tires (80%+)

* Replaced front and back pads and rotors

* Replaced timing belt kit (water pump, etc.)

* New doors and bumper (the previous owner had spray painted the old ones for some reason)

* Willing to replace windshield (a small chip)

* Willing to fix leaking right rear strut (after our mechanic discovered it)

 

Asking $6500 to have all this work done and the car is ours.  We know that a new(er) engine does not mean a newer car, but I understand that it can add up to $800-1000 to a price at a dealer.  Given all the other work they have done and are willing to do, what are your thoughts on this price and purchase?  Please keep in mind that I have little car experience and almost no mechanical savvy, and that we are in need of a car and have a pretty fixed income (grad students).  

 

Any advice would be much appreciated. 

Edited June 13, 2015 by mthoudek

[ccrinc]

Gary,  thanks, and an update.

 

Our warranty is now 3 years/50,000 miles for N/A engines.  12/12 for turbos, for obvious reasons.

 

Emily