Hey! Look at me, I'm a newb

[hove102]

Now that I've got your attention, time to tell my story/ask my questions.

 

Like (I'm sure a lot of you on here), I've been a Subaru fanboy for as long as I can remember.  Growing up I watched the WRC on TV as much as I could and I remembered, more than anything else, those WRC Blue and yellow Subarus screaming through stages and absolutely embarrassing everything else out there.  From a young age, I knew I had to own a Subaru at some point.  I also remember going to local auto shows and drooling over the brand new Subies on the show floor and sitting in any of the ones I could.

Fast forward 10+ years, and here I am looking for my third car.  First was a '94 Volvo 940 wagon that I kept for 4 years, but got rid of when it started to get old (and expensive).  I'd also outgrown the car and wanted to get something that could do more.  I was abroad in Oz for a semester and when I came back, I bought an '03 Montero Sport.  Good truck, but abysmal fuel mileage and completely not what I was looking for in a commuter vehicle for school and work, and I can't find the time to actually off-road it like I wanted to.  That's where I am today, trying to sell the Monty and hopefully buy a used version of those Outbacks I drooled over as a kid.

I've done a lot of reading on this site, NASIOC, Edmunds, etc, and I've absorbed a LOT of information, so now I'm coming to you guys for your personal experiences.  Ideally, I want a 2000-04 OBW (in a lighter color) that's been as well-kept as possible by the previous owners.  Here are my questions for you guys (based on personal experiences, others' testimony, etc):
 

1.Is there any year of OBW, between 2000 and 2004, that's better than any other? I know my dad always abides by the "never buy the first year of anything" rule, so that's pretty ingrained in me as well.  I also know that '03-on EJ25s have a decreased risk of HG failure; is this true?

2.How many miles is too many? Where do you make the cutoff as to whether a car is worth the money or not? My price cap is $3.5K, so whatever I find under that is going to have a lot of miles, and I know it depends on how well kept the car is, but when should I walk away?

3.Do any of you ever have problems with your car running hot during normal driving? I had a guy on another forum (not Subaru-specific) say that "any time the needle is past normal your [sic] overheated" and that "I would have to go into full temp management mode to climb a grade, even with new head gaskets"...he also went on to say that the design of the car led to poor cooling. I have a hard time believing Subaru would knowingly sell a car to the public with a cooling system that poorly designed.

 

4.Are there any items you guys would recommend I specifically inspect pre-purchase, and is there anything you recommend I should do shortly after initial purchase, just as peace-of-mind maintenance/care?

Sorry for being so wordy, this was half an introducing myself post and half a OBW-specific post, and I could go on with all the other nit-picky questions I have.  I'll stop now so you guys don't just ignore this!  Anyway, I look forward to hearing what you guys have to say and hopefully adding to my Subie knowledge so that I feel comfortable when I go look at OBWs! Thanks! 

Edited May 13, 2015 by hove102

[montana tom]

#1) 00-04 all will need head gaskets around 150,000 miles or less. Yes 03-04 are improved . After a properly done HG job no more issues should be seen. #2) well I like to hear about subis pushing the 500,000 mark, but personally after 300,000 I would be carefull, all depends on who had it and how well it was maintained.#3) Whoever posted about cooling problems needed his head gaskets done properly or his radiator & cooling fans or thermostat,rad cap ... no telling what his problems were but they are not indicative of subis in general. #4) lol everything you always look at , fluids ,axles & boots , tires,struts ball joints, tie rods , have a obdll tester with you to scan codes .....  After purchase...Timing belt, tensioner, all idlers, water pump, cam / crank seals, tighten oil pump backing plate . If they are not documented as being done then just plan on it , you don't want them failing on you. I drive a 2000 obw with 258,000 miles the wifes is a 2001 with 208,000 ... they are good cars.

[AdventureSubaru]

No worries. As mentioned usually the first head gasket set will need done within 150k but done right with Subaru gaskets and head resurfaced, the repair will last the lift of the motor.

 

I drive a 2000 Outback with 230k. Up until last summer my wife drove a 2000 Outback which had 362k and last i heard from the new owner, is still out there and driving. I see many with over 300k on craigslist etc. Very solid cars.

 

#1. I've heard rumors to that effect, but with your budget, you may be better off finding one that has already had headgaskets done, which would make the years pretty irrelevant. The first year rule is good in general but not something I would apply to outbacks. It's a new body style but mechanically, it's an EJ motor and 4eat transmission with Subaru AWD. They've been doing it since 1990 and doing it quite well. The only unique issue to the 2000s was eventual delayed forward engagement of the transmission which is fixed by a $6. can of Trans-X. Hardly a deal breaker.

 

#2. No such thing in my mind. Seen subarus thrashed to death in less than 100k and seen cars I would drive across country with no hesitation with over 500k. Look for how it's been cared for. Timing belt and head gasket issues for the motor being most prevalent and failure, issues with the transmission being the other reason I've ever seen these cars ever go to the junk yard.

 

#3. No. Never. Not even with a full load, running AC up the 9 mile steep uphill grade of highway 17. Use only Subaru brand thermostats and fresh coolant. (Subaru also provides coolant conditioner for $3. a bottle that helps extend head gasket life. However, I do agree that if the needle goes above halfway, it's indicating something is not right. Not dangerous yet, but to be investigated and watched. These cars don't run hot for no reason.

 

#4.Ask about when/if timing belt and head gaskets were done previously. Service records or receipts are a big plus if they can be provided. Clutch is also a bonus in 5 speeds. Look at the seams of the head gasket near the rear of the motor for seepage/leaks. Weeping/seeping is ok. Leakage shows impending issues. Drive the car in slow tight circles to check for torque bind. Make sure tires are matching. Coolant levels and most of the usual stuff.

 

Good luck with the hunt. These are great cars!

[hove102]

Thanks so much guys! I knew I should have come here first to get advice on OBWs. Reading your posts has definitely given me a lot more faith in these cars, more than I already had.  Something told me what that guy was saying about overheating issues was a load of nonsense.

AdventureSubaru, when you refer to transmission issues, are you talking about things like like torque bind, slow shifting, etc?  Also, what do you consider the difference between seeping and leaking?  I'm assuming with leaking you mean seeing actual liquid coming out and not just a damp spot.

 

If it were your money, would you buy an auto or a manual?  I'm going to be daily driving this thing, so while it would be fun to have a manual, an auto would save my left leg a lot of work.  Does the stick make the car any more fun or peppy?

[lstevens76]

Ok, whoever that person on another forum was needs there head checked then needs to learn  how to do research before giving advice.................

 

Aside from that, what's your technical level?  One option would be to pick up one that  has just blown the head gaskets and fix it yourself.

 

Another possibility is to look older than '00.  Here (Idaho) it's hit and miss to see anything '00 or newer selling for less than 3k, and '01+ is usually over 3k for subarus.

[hove102]

Ok, whoever that person on another forum was needs there head checked then needs to learn  how to do research before giving advice.................

 

Aside from that, what's your technical level?  One option would be to pick up one that  has just blown the head gaskets and fix it yourself.

 

Another possibility is to look older than '00.  Here (Idaho) it's hit and miss to see anything '00 or newer selling for less than 3k, and '01+ is usually over 3k for subarus.

Hahaha I agree...

 

And I'd say it's an amateur level. I can handle a lot of things, but HGs might be a bit much, especially since I don't have the space to have a car blown apart for as long as it takes to do that job. That's my biggest issue, along with lack of experience. I don't have the experience or equipment to surface the heads and the block before putting it all back together.

 

And I've looked at the 1996-99 OBWs as well.  I go back and forth on the looks (the early OBWs look a bit more rally-esque, which is pretty cool), but I've heard some iffy things about the Phase I EJ25s.  All the clean 96-99s down in SoCal are about the same price as a clean 00-04, and given that choice I'll go with the newer example.  If the HGs on a Phase I have been replaced correctly with the updated gaskets, is it likely for them to fail again?  Also, is there any reliability difference between the DOHC heads on the Phase I and the SOHC heads on the Phase II?

Edited May 13, 2015 by hove102

[lstevens76]

Engine R&R - 6 hour job at a shop.

 

Head Gaskets off the car - 3 to 4 hour job at a shop

 

Basically you can do head gaskets in 2 to 3 days even while learning, but I understand your hesitation and not wanting to do that.

 

There are a couple of really nice cars on the Orange County Craigslist, but none of them list if HG has ever been done.  A Carfax might show you.

 

https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/ctd/5004988183.html

 

https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/5016741110.html

 

Now, if you want to really have fun you buy this and have the transmission rebuilt.  

 

https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/4974659590.html

[AdventureSubaru]

Phase 1 EJ25 (DOHC) 96-99 - repeated head gasket failures. Can be a nightmare of a motor. If you go for a 96-99 outback find one with an already bad motor and swap in an EJ22 for bullet proof reliability. It's plug and play. Takes a day and a half your first time. I did my last motor swap in about 5 hours.

 

Phase 2 EJ25 (SOHC) 1999 1/2-2004+ - Very good motor that will need head gaskets once in its life provided it was not overheated the first time and the repair was done right with Subaru gaskets.

 

my current outback is 5 speed and my wifes was auto. Both are good transmissions and the car accelerates fine but is not a powerhouse. The LL bean models with the EZ30 motor will throw you into the back of your seat but are harder to work on if the motor ever needs work.

 

And yes. Torque bind is unique to subaru/AWd but check the trans fluid. Feel for jerky shifting, slow shifting, slippage of gears, clutch, popping out of gear in manuals, growls etc.

 

And yes, weeping will usually look like dried oil. Seeping is a little dampness present. Leakage would be anything more. Head gaskets aren't the end of the world when they happen but it's a big repair bill to pay for, or a pain to pull the motor and do yourself.

Edited May 13, 2015 by AdventureSubaru

[hove102]

Engine R&R - 6 hour job at a shop.

 

Head Gaskets off the car - 3 to 4 hour job at a shop

 

Basically you can do head gaskets in 2 to 3 days even while learning, but I understand your hesitation and not wanting to do that.

 

There are a couple of really nice cars on the Orange County Craigslist, but none of them list if HG has ever been done.  A Carfax might show you.

 

https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/ctd/5004988183.html

 

https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/5016741110.html

 

Now, if you want to really have fun you buy this and have the transmission rebuilt.

 

https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/4974659590.html

Funny thing, I've actually been keeping an eye on both of those cars since they popped up on Craigslist! The red one just got its price lowered, which is nice, but it has two stereo head units in the dash, which kinda weirds me out.  Little things like that make me more uneasy than they probably should.  The green one is a stick, which is cool, but it's at the upper end of my price range and since it's at a dealer, I'm not sure how willing to haggle they'd be.  And if I knew anything about SVXs/didn't want a wagon, I might be all over that!  I do know that the EG33 motor in those is pretty awesome though.

 

And AdventureSubaru, that's good to know.  I'd always heard that the EJ22 was the superior engine of that generation, and since I need something that doesn't need the engine swapped right away, I'll stick with the 00-04s. Jeep Grand Cherokees of the mid-90s with the Quadratrac AWD system have a similar torque bind phenomenon when their viscous couplers fail, so I'm sure the sensation is similar in an Outback...kinda feels like you're driving with both axles locked, right? Tires chirp, engine bogs, etc? I would like an LL Bean with the EZ30 but most of those are out of my price range or pretty abused in my price range, so unless a diamond in the rough appears, I'll probably end up with an EJ251 car.

[jmoss5723]

Like AdventureSubaru said, EZ30 is awesome. I don't think I'd buy an OBW without one now that I've experienced it. If you can find one in budget, get it!

 

Side note: I know you want to sell your Montero partially because you don't have time to take it off road, but if you want to have a vehicle with even moderate off road capability, you might want to consider any other generation of Outback or maybe a Forester. 00-04 Outbacks have terrible ground clearance in stock form. If that isn't at all a concern for you, then disregard. I love my wife's 02 OBW in every other way except off road ability.

[hove102]

Like AdventureSubaru said, EZ30 is awesome. I don't think I'd buy an OBW without one now that I've experienced it. If you can find one in budget, get it!

 

Side note: I know you want to sell your Montero partially because you don't have time to take it off road, but if you want to have a vehicle with even moderate off road capability, you might want to consider any other generation of Outback or maybe a Forester. 00-04 Outbacks have terrible ground clearance in stock form. If that isn't at all a concern for you, then disregard. I love my wife's 02 OBW in every other way except off road ability.

That's a good point, and one I've thought about, but since I barely have time to off-road now it's not something I'm concerning myself with at the immediate moment.  Down the, line, I'd probably end up putting Forester or Baja springs on my (future) Outback, or possibly even the King lift springs if I was feeling like dropping some serious cash.  I've thought about Foresters too, but they're pretty hard to come by in this neck of the woods, especially in my price range, or without obscenely high miles.  I'll still go drive one! Who knows, my opinion may be changed once I drive both of them.  I do like the way Foresters look.....

[jmoss5723]

Any particular reason why you want the 00-04 over the previous generation? A first generation Outback Limited 5spd with timing belts and HGs done is my ideal Outback.

[hove102]

Modernity, to be honest. The convenience features get better on newer vehicles, and I am a sucker for how the Gen 2 OBWs look too. That's not to say that a 99 OBW wouldn't be awesome, especially one with low mileage, but if I could find a 03 for the same money, I'd gladly choose the 03. Plus I've heard too many scary things about the EJ25D to be confident in buying one. That being said, there is a really clean 99 being sold by the original owner that I'm keeping my eye on.

 

This one: http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/cto/5017905902.html

 

Any reason you'd choose a Gen 1 over a Gen 2?

Edited May 13, 2015 by hove102

[AdventureSubaru]

That's a beauty. But I never trust them with the DOHC motor. Swap a 2.2 in for $300 and sell the 2.5 for $500.

[hove102]

Would a 2.2 be totally gutless with an automatic? For $3K I'd like to not have to do a lot of work off the bat though! Haha...and since we're talking engine swaps, how hard would it be to put a turbo motor in a car that didn't originally come with one?

[jmoss5723]

I'd choose a gen1 over gen2 for looks, ground clearance, and can easily be ej22 swapped if the engine craps out. I'm not a huge fan of the dohc engine, but if you get gaskets before they get you, its not a bad engine.

 

Basically its just personal preference, I guess.

[lstevens76]

Would a 2.2 be totally gutless with an automatic? For $3K I'd like to not have to do a lot of work off the bat though! Haha...and since we're talking engine swaps, how hard would it be to put a turbo motor in a car that didn't originally come with one?

 

No, they are not totally gutless.  

 

The EJ221 is the Phase 1 and the EJ222 is the Phase 2:

EJ221 Naturally Aspirated

• Horsepower: 135 bhp (101 kW; 135 bhp) @ 5800 rpm
• Torque: 137 lb·ft (186 N·m) @ 4800 rpm

EJ222 Naturally Aspirated (1999)

• Horsepower: 142 bhp (106 kW; 144 PS) @ 5600 rpm
• Torque: 149 lb·ft (202 N·m) @ 3600 rpm

 

EJ25D (first gen EJ25)

DOHC (1996) - SAE - 155 hp (116 kW) @ 5600 rpm

140 ft·lbf (190 N·m) at 2800 rpm

DOHC (1997–1999) - SAE - 165 hp (123 kW) @ 5600 rpm

162 ft·lbf (220 N·m) at 4000 rpm

 

EJ251 

Power ISO: 123 kW (165 hp) @ 5600 RPM

226 N·m (167 ft·lbf) @ 4400 rpm

 

Yes there is some horespower torque difference, but you can see it isn't a "huge" difference.

[hove102]

These are all good points...I suppose it all does come down to personal preference past a certain point.  If I can avoid doing a full engine swap, I'd prefer that...not that I don't love getting my hands dirty, but that's a little bit (lotta bit?) out of my comfort zone.  Based on that, I'll probably end up focusing more on Gen 2s unless I can find some unicorn-Gen 1 that I absolutely can't pass up.  I know it's not the most popular opinion, but I really do like the looks of the Gen 2...I think it's because I grew up seeing them so they're what I gravitate towards!

[KiwiGL]

That's a good point, and one I've thought about, but since I barely have time to off-road now it's not something I'm concerning myself with at the immediate moment.  Down the, line, I'd probably end up putting Forester or Baja springs on my (future) Outback, or possibly even the King lift springs if I was feeling like dropping some serious cash.  I've thought about Foresters too, but they're pretty hard to come by in this neck of the woods, especially in my price range, or without obscenely high miles.  I'll still go drive one! Who knows, my opinion may be changed once I drive both of them.  I do like the way Foresters look.....

 

Just a word on suspension - the 2000-on Outback uses different rear suspension design (multilink not Mac strut) and so SF and SG Forester (1997-2008) rear suspension won't fit in...

 

The EJ251 isn't a bad engine, mine weeps a little oil from the left HG but still runs fine. I'd recommend a manual though. Auto would be sluggish and have poorer response.

[hove102]

Just a word on suspension - the 2000-on Outback uses different rear suspension design (multilink not Mac strut) and so SF and SG Forester (1997-2008) rear suspension won't fit in...

 

The EJ251 isn't a bad engine, mine weeps a little oil from the left HG but still runs fine. I'd recommend a manual though. Auto would be sluggish and have poorer response.

You're right...I'd totally forgotten about that.  That's that whole newb thing coming in to play...I thought I'd read about guys using Forester springs to lift their 00-04 Outbacks, but I think I might be lumping Forester springs and Baja springs together even though they're completely different vehicles and the Baja is actually related to the Outback.  And I can handle oil leaks, everything I've owned so far has leaked a little bit of oil so it doesn't faze me unless it gets bad.  Coolant leaks are what scare me.

 

I noticed you have Kings on your Forester, would you recommend them for a real lift over just swapping to taller springs from another Subaru?

Edited May 14, 2015 by hove102

[hove102]

http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/cto/5026457155.html

This '96 just popped up today. I know I say I'm partial to the Gen 2s but this thing is gorgeous and the mileage is pretty low. Definitely keeping an eye on this one. Anyone have any thoughts?

 

I'm also currently drooling over these Gen 2s:

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/ssd/cto/5025562665.html

 

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/cto/5011729619.html

 

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=92705&endYear=2008&listingType=used&listingTypes=used&mmt=%5BSUB%5BSUBOUTBK%5B%5DFOREST%5B%5DLEGACY%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&modelCode1=SUBOUTBK&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&makeCode2=SUB&modelCode2=FOREST&showcaseOwnerId=1361865&startYear=1981&makeCode1=SUB&modelCode3=LEGACY&firstRecord=26&makeCode3=SUB&searchRadius=100&listingId=398090551&Log=0

(probably going to go look at this one this weekend since it's at a "dealer")

 

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=92705&endYear=2016&modelCode1=SUBOUTBK&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&showcaseOwnerId=1361865&startYear=1981&makeCode1=SUB&searchRadius=100&maxPrice=4000&mmt=%5BSUB%5BSUBOUTBK%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=398784541&Log=0

(this one's at an auction place which I'm not so sure about, but I like the color & mileage)

[Olnick]

That '96 in Chino looks nice.  Just be aware--that was the very first year for the DOHC 2.5 and IIRC it required premium gas.

[Todd GT5]

Looks like some good options.  I would definitely prefer getting one with a documented HG job.  I've had a 92 Legacy L wagon(probably the best car I ever had value wise), 1998 Outback(HG blew at 120,000mi-otherwise nice car) and the one I have to this day 2000 Outback.  The 2000 Outback had 171,000mi and fresh HG and other "Subaru Shop" pre-sale prep.  I currently have 228,000mi and it's running great.  One thing I have had to deal with is the check engine light code for the Cat.  I went through replacing o2 sensors and eventually had to get a new Cat.

 

If I were buying now, I would still go with Gen 2 or 3, but a rare creampuff 90-93 Legacy wagon would catch my attention:)

 

Good luck

 

Todd

[hove102]

I did not know that Olnick, thanks for the tip. I put premium in my truck currently so I'm used to spending a bit more. By any chance, do you know if the rest of the EJ25x family runs better on premium as opposed to regular?

 

And Todd GT5, that's the kind of personal experience I'm looking for. I'm not looking all the way back at the early Legacies, mainly because they're just too old, but good to know that you've had good luck with your Gen 2. Did you buy it from the O.O. or just another owner who also took good care of it?

Edited May 15, 2015 by hove102

[KiwiGL]

You're right...I'd totally forgotten about that.  That's that whole newb thing coming in to play...I thought I'd read about guys using Forester springs to lift their 00-04 Outbacks, but I think I might be lumping Forester springs and Baja springs together even though they're completely different vehicles and the Baja is actually related to the Outback.  And I can handle oil leaks, everything I've owned so far has leaked a little bit of oil so it doesn't faze me unless it gets bad.  Coolant leaks are what scare me.

 

I noticed you have Kings on your Forester, would you recommend them for a real lift over just swapping to taller springs from another Subaru?

Kings are nice, but not really necessary unless your suspension is shagged and it needs replacing anyway. I fitted raiseds as block and spacer lifts are illegal in NZ. If body lifts were legal I'd fit standard height front raised rear (to compensate for loaded vehicle) and then blocks to lift more. At the moment my Foz has a saggy arse when loaded as the front Kings don't compress a lot.