cwiggles Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 (edited) Hi all, I am new to this forum, in fact it is my first post! So hello everyone Now on to business.... I have a 1995 Subaru Liberty GX (manual). I think they are called Legacy outside of Australia. I've had the car for about 15 years and it's done about 380,000 kms. For about the last 2 months I have noticed that when going up long steep hills the car starts to lose power and at the same time I get a really bad vibration from the front. It's a left to right sort of vibration and seems to be coming from the engine or engine compartment. Changing down gears does not seem to help at all. Revs stay about the same, so no significant loss of revs. The issue goes away fairly quickly once over the hill and on a flat road. Issue does not occur when going downhill. My mechanic has checked the wiring, spark plugs, fuel pump, had part of the clutch replaced (clutch plate I think), and one of the front CV joints was replaced 6 months ago. None of these has fixed the issue. I think it is now getting worse and occurring on moderate inclines, not badly, but I can feel it through the steering wheel. I noticed in some threads on similar topics that the front axels could be the culprit. Do you think my symptoms point to this? Despite the car having a few k's on the engine, the power is not lacking at start-up or on the road, apart from the afore mentioned moderate-steep hill issue. About the only thing I can add is that on one occasion there did also seem to be the smell of oil, it wasn't strong, but I was sure I could smell it. Since then the mechanic replaced the rocker cover seals, he found a small leak. I did not smell any oil last time this happened. I tend to avoid the roads with long hills at the moment, but I would like to get it fixed, it just seems my mechanic is not a Subaru specialist. Anyway, I would really appreciate any feedback / suggestions. It's been a bloody good car and don't really want to part or junk it if the issue is something relatively easy and not too expensive to fix. Kind regards, Craig Edited May 28, 2015 by cwiggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 (edited) Welcome Craig! The oily smell could be somehow a "normal" thing after a reseal, because usually certain amount of Oil gets to the Exhaust system or its covers, and smells as it get burned, so I don't believe this is related to the Engine Shaking + Power lost during Uphills. Many different things could cause that symptoms, but certainly I would suggest you to start by doing a Test of the Fuel Pressure at the injectors, because the culprit could be a failing fuel pump and / or a clogged fuel filter, which are not delivering the appropriate pressure. However, other causes could be a Failing Sparkplug: I've seen few with broken internal resistors, and also a Failing P.C.V. Valve, which could be Sucking oil on certain angles... In my own humble opinion, I would start by Checking those three. Don't forget to share Photos of your Liberty with us, we love Photos here Good Luck! ... Kind Regards. Edited May 28, 2015 by Loyale 2.7 Turbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Have you ever had the rear separator plate replaced with a metal one? At over 200k miles (385k km) it's very possible that your separator plate is leaking and putting oil down on the clutch. Given a good incline, etc... that clutch is shuddering because of the oil causing it to slip. This could cause both problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 CV axles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 I had a bad inner CV, it acted much like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 I had a Loyale model that acted up and had intermittent hesitation while climbing a particular hill. One day the car just quit while on the road. The shop replaced the fuel pump and the hill problem was gone after that. You may have a different issue though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureSubaru Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 (edited) Separator plate is behind the flywheel. Can't get oil on the clutch that way. I would suspect fuel delivery, spark or CV joint. How old are the plug wires? Edited May 28, 2015 by AdventureSubaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Separator plate is behind the flywheel. Can't get oil on the clutch that way. I would suspect fuel delivery, spark or CV joint. How old are the plug wires? Sorry, but wrong. An oil leak at the rear of the engine is going to spread oil all over and onto the clutch. I've had it happen before and in any vehicle the possibility is there. I'm not saying that is the problem, just disagreeing with the comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureSubaru Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 (edited) Buddy, I've pulled dozens of these motors over the years. Oil leaking from that plastic seperator plate works it's way down, between the motor and bellhousing and if bad enough will drip onto the Y pipe and give you some fun white smoke from under the hood. But never, NEVER has the oil made it's way to the clutch. There would have to be a water tight seal across the bottom of the motor to trans for the oil to collect and run against gravity to get that far up and mess with the clutch. And this simply isn't so. Speculation is fine, but don't be a know-it-all. Learn from those of us who have a ton of know-how and history with these cars before trying to tell us we're wrong about something. I'm not making this stuff up. I speak from experience to try and save a fellow member the wasted time of seeing if a seperator plate leak would cause a clutch to slip. Or look at it this way - If a clutch were so coated with oil as to slip across the flywheel, it would not be isolated to those times in which the car is driving up hills. Something is clearly causing the engine to hesitate under load and cause a lot of vibration - dying fuel pump, blockage in the lines, plugs, wires etc. or something like a failing inner CV is making things run wonky. Edited May 29, 2015 by AdventureSubaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Sorry, but wrong. An oil leak at the rear of the engine is going to spread oil all over and onto the clutch. I've had it happen before and in any vehicle the possibility is there. I'm not saying that is the problem, just disagreeing with the comment. Not gonna happen. Separator leak is too slow. I've watched oil constantly drip from the bellhousing because the separator leak and it never makes it even near the clutch. Rear main, different story. Shaking that doesn't go away or change with a change in engine speed is usually drivetrain related. Cv axle, u-joint, carrier bearing, something like that. If it's having power loss that could means its having a misfire problem (weak spark due to faulty coil pack or old plugs). An oddity that occasionally happens with those engines is the ports for the hydraulic lifters clog and the lifters can pump up too much and hold the valves open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwiggles Posted May 29, 2015 Author Share Posted May 29, 2015 Hi Everyone, many thanks for all the suggestions/opinions. I should have given a better run down on what has been looked at and replaced - Spark plugs - Wiring harness - Clutch plate (old one was worn) - One of the front CV joints (can't find paperwork to tell me which one) - Upper Engine cleaner was applied at last service (4 months ago) - gasket in one of the rocker covers replaced, had a small leak. Decided to get it fixed before it got worse. - Fuel filter replaced - front brake pads redone to stop shuddering under braking The fuel pump has been tested and they can't find anything wrong, said the pressure was correct per spec. My family are telling me to junk the car, but it's been such a good runner, and relative cheap to run repair wise. I always had it serviced regularly, so this is the first major thing to go wrong. Not bad for a 20yr old car. So I am prepared to spend a bit on it to get it back in shape. You have all given me some area's to investigate, so I'll discuss them with the mechanic. I also have a lead on a very well respected Subaru mechanic, so I plan to call them and have a chat and see what they say. I'll post an update when I know more. Once again, thankyou to all. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureSubaru Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 If spark plug wires have not been replaced, I would look no further until you replace them. No need for a mechanic to install. Just pop them off and replace one at a time and pop them in. Failing plug wires will do exactly what you described and are to be replaced every 30-60,000 miles on these cars. Put new plug wires on there and then post back.Less expensive and easier than almost every other option. Needs to be done anyway if they have not been replaced, and will very likely solve your issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureSubaru Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 (edited) And it never ceases to amaze me how much "family" as a whole, who generally have no real knowledge or understanding about cars still try to give advice about cars. If it's a trusted family member who's been in the business 10-20 years and trying to help someone with less knowledge than themsef it's one thing. But saying "get rid of that clunker and buy something newer and (assumed) more reliable" is just ignorant. These are often the same folks who buy a Kia because they "got a great deal" and :"look how cute it is!" 3-5 years they'll be singing different tunes when the engines and transmission take dives at random inside of 100k and these 90s Subarus will still be going strong so long as people are caring for them. I see them in junkyards all the time with over 300k - some with 400 and 500. Last week I helped a buddy out on an outback with 365k that had issue due to improper timing belt change interval. So it was operator error. Worth sticking with it and getting a lot of mileage out of these cars. Edited May 29, 2015 by AdventureSubaru 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 ...The fuel pump has been tested and they can't find anything wrong, said the pressure was correct per spec... Let them check if the Fuel pressure is Retained after the engine has been shut off. ...saying "get rid of that clunker and buy something newer and (assumed) more reliable" is just ignorant... Yes, you're right... Sad but True. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaru_dude Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I vote CV axle. Had a bad left front on a GL that would act exactly the same way. Engine didn't seem effected, NO CHECK ENGINE LIGHT, but as soon as I let off it would cease but I would have to drive slower until I got up the hill. Also had a Legacy with a sticking rear caliper and I had a similar problem but it was more speed related. The faster I'd go the more violent the vibrating would get. Of course I also noticed the car seemed more sluggish so that may not be your issue but next time you come to a stop after a bit of a drive just touch each wheel around the lug nuts/hub and see if any of them are considerably hotter than the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaru_dude Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 (edited) Sorry, double post. Edited May 29, 2015 by Subaru_dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwiggles Posted July 8, 2015 Author Share Posted July 8, 2015 Hi all, it's been awhile since my orginal post. Firstly thanks to all who have replied. I had booked my car in to a good service centre, but as luck would have it, the day before it was due to be serviced someone tried top steal it from the railway station car park. Basically they destroyed all three locks, the two front door locks and the boot lock, the later looked as if in frustration they just jammed something in it and snapped it off. The door locks just rotated 360 degrees in the door if you tried to open them with the key. Had to get the insurance company to get the car towed and locked up for the night, didn't want to take the chance the sods would come back at some point in the night and try and steal it again. So it's been with the insurers for just on 6 days now, and despite warnings that they may write it off, they haven't and just now waiting to have the locks replaced and re-keyed. Just frustrating to be without the car. The police said my car made it four for the day, two Nissan Pulsars were stolen and another Subaru suffered the same fate, except they managed to open the doors but destroyed the ignition lock. At least in my case they didn't get in. So once I get it back, it's off to the mechanic to check the CV joints and axles and take it from there. I'll post another update once I know more from the mechanic. Regards, Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 wow, crazy. CV axles- the inner joint is failing. front diff or suspension should cause some noise as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwiggles Posted August 7, 2015 Author Share Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) Hi all, just an update. Eventually got the car back from the Insurance company, they were going to write it off originally, but changed their minds. Just got it back from a recommended Subaru experienced mechanic and the real issue is a leaking head gasket. He says that basically coolant is leaking into the combustion chambers on steep inclines causing the cylinders to misfire, hence the vibration and loss of power. He checked the CV joints and axels and could not find anything wrong. So now the question is this, do I 1. have the head gaskets replaced. His only concern was that seeing the engine is so old and is already low on compression, replacing the gasket could cause the engine to blow due to the weakened state of the engine and the higher compression with the new gaskets. He has quoted $1800 Australian dollars to replace the head gaskets. 2. Look at a reconditioned engine, this one has done close to 400,000 km's now. Ball park for a refurbished engine is in the $3.5-4k AUD region. 3. Cut my losses and trade up to a 2010/2011 model. (have been looking at the diesel outbacks, quite a few on the 2nd hand market. A 2010 model seem to resell between $14-18k AUD. So I have a decision to make, invest more in the current car, or upgrade. Would be interested in you would do in my position. I am loath to spend a lot and would rather put the money to pay off the mortgage, but the car is 20yrs old, but I like the car, it drives well, sort of attached to the dam thing, plus I just had some body work repaired which cost $600. Craig Edited August 7, 2015 by cwiggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 is a used engine an option? you, personally , might be better served with a newer car but - if it can be repaired 'fairly inexpensively' - I think that car could be good for someone who keeps it close to 'home base' and only used it for school or work travel. but, it does seem tired...maybe time to send it to the breakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 As long as you aren't and don't need to rebuild the heads you should be fine with just new gaskets. If the Valves, etc... stay as they are it isn't going to change the compression that engine should be at. Where the issues with head gaskets come in is when people put a rebuilt head w/ ground valves, etc... on an aged short block. The rebuilt head is suddenly creating as much compression as a new head and the lower end isn't new so problems can occur. If there are no problems with the valves just replace the valve stem seals, cam seals, and clean up the mating surfaces. That engine only has 230k miles on it and there are many Subaru's on the west coast of the US that are over 300k miles. The question you need to ask yourself is: Do I want to have this car for another 50k+ miles or do I want a newer car? This isn't about the cost of the repair or if the repair will work, it's about whether you want to keep your car longer and avoid that new car payment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccrinc Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Craig, Have to agree with your mechanic: the chance of "blowing" an old engine with head gasket repairs is real. I get attached to my cars too, but I'm lucky: I have family "in the business". If you can't get a decent used engine, I'd go for the diesel Outback. (WOW! You can actually get them there?!?!) Do you know how many people would kill for that chance over here? Emily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) The "Chance" is there, but the possibility is low unless there are already lower end problems. Most of the time when the lower end of an engine blows when a head gasket is replaced it's due to putting rebuilt or new heads on. At 230k miles (380k km) that engine still has a lot of life in it. It's very common for Subaru's at this mileage in the US to receive just head gaskets and keep going for another 100k+ miles. I don't see any reason an engine in Australia would be any different from one in the US as far as the basic build goes. But, rather than take our word for it research. Search this site and others for people that have put head gaskets on subarus at 200k+ miles and have had the engines blow. Edit: The one condition I would agree the engine needs replaced/rebuilt if it has had coolant in the oil and been driven that way. Even a few miles with coolant in the oil and driven can damage the bearings, but you haven't mentioned any coolant getting in the oil. Edited August 7, 2015 by lstevens76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 ... If you can't get a decent used engine, I'd go for the diesel Outback ... Do you know how many people would kill for that chance over here? ... There's a Company selling Boxer Diesel Engines + retrofitting kits in the USA, since long ago, see: ~► www.boxeer.com Back on Topic, I agree with lstevens76, that engine could be good to go for much more miles, if the Head Gasket Job is done right, and you give the proper maintenance. Kind Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Coolant leaking into the cylinders while running only when on a hill due to increase in thermal loading and therefore increase in temp and therefore increase in pressure? So problem will not happen if you loosen the radiator cap or do the test cold. Easy confirmation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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