Rbob Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Help! And thanks in advance to anyone who knows what's going on with my ride. 98 Legacy 2.5 wagon. Went to town. Parked for about 10 min, all was normal. Inserted key, no dash lights or icons, turned to "start" and nada. Thinking my battery connection were suspect (they were actually pretty clean) I banged them with a screw driver handle. Retried start, no go. Repeated process car suddenly started as if nothing had been wrong. On 2 mile drive home ABS light began blinking, Check Engine flickered bright dim bright dim, not blinking on off. Parked in drive way. Shut it off and restarted. No check engine light, all seemed normal. Shut it off and tried to restart, dead as my dog. 4way flashers and door locks have power, dash has none. Something in front of my left knee clicks every 2 seconds, no matter if key is on or off, in or out. Did finally manage to restart. don't know what I did, don't think I did anything. Maybe unrelated, just prior to this incident, I thought I heard a faint high pitched whine and know I got some strange bass tones out ot the stock radio, about every 2 sec while on a FM talk station, I made a mental note to look into it. This morning battery voltage was about 2 instead of 12.5, leaked down overnight. Recharged and started fine 2 times then failed to light up on 3rd attempt. Dash is dead again. Clicking from in front of left knee again. With every known thing turned off I have full battery voltage with meter between negative cable and batt post. I'm thinking main power relay, I can almost see where it is supposed to be above inside fuse panel, with kick panel removed, but I'm physically too large a person to do anything about it, without a hoist. Thoughts anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewisd Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 sounds somewhat similar to my problem recently. have you checked all the fuses, under hood and under dash by kickpanel? I had the "illum" 10amp fuse out and I had no dash lights/icons, no gauges worked, no interior fan, and 12 volt reading while running and not charging properly. replaced that and had 14V at battery charging and all back to normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Still sounds like a battery connection problem. Double check the terminals for clean connection. Check the ground wire that attaches to the body near the battery. Also check the small wire that runs from the battery to the fuse panel under the hood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rbob Posted June 5, 2015 Author Share Posted June 5, 2015 Thnx Lewis, but fuses appear good. A bit more info: After posting the above, I went out, connected the battery. Climbed in. Heard clicking from lower left dash turned key to on, nothing. I left it on a few minutes, radio came to life, hit 4 ways radio died. Cycled key stopped with it on. After about 2 minutes of blackout the dash came to life and car started fine, no check engine or ABS lights. BTW this has been a good battery, It's old but has never died without me doing something stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 I would not be surprised if your battery is the problem. Had similar problem years ago with my old VW. Turned out one battery cell was bad, so voltage output was low. I had enough amps to run the starter, but low voltage had dash gauges showing crazy read outs. Check the individual battery cells with a tester to see if that is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rbob Posted June 5, 2015 Author Share Posted June 5, 2015 Appreciate the thought Fairfax, but I can safely rule them out. Being a top post battery I can check voltage both on the posts and on the clamps, not touching the posts, thus checking the connection. Voltages are the same. They're squeaky clean, I replaced the pos last winter and cleaned the neg yesterday though it didn't need it. I'm curious what is clicking in the lower left dash area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rbob Posted June 5, 2015 Author Share Posted June 5, 2015 Thnx Rooster. Voltage is 12.5. It's an all or nothing situation. Does anyone know off the top where the ECM is on this ride? The clicking in front of my left knee I think is the most telling clue. The main power (or ign) relay is there, as is the fuel pump relay. What else? Nothing should be clicking with everything off and the key out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted June 6, 2015 Share Posted June 6, 2015 Are the terminals the universal bolt ons that crimp around the end of the cable? You've checked voltage at the fuse panel as well? Most interior power comes through the fusible link (looks like a black wire) in the underhood fuse panel. Pull on that and see if it breaks. Check all of the big slow blow fuses, pull them out and make sure they're not burned or have a poor connection. Check voltage reaching the interior fuse panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rbob Posted June 6, 2015 Author Share Posted June 6, 2015 So thnx for yr concern, but it's not my battery or connections. I may be a newbie on this board, but am not a newbie to fixing old cars. My first Sub went 450 K. The kid I gave it to, after I overheated it and blew a head gasket, drove it home. (adding coolant on the way). So pls don't respond unless you can address the clicking noise coming from in front of my left knee, The fuel pump relay (no problem there) and main pwr/ign are located there. My battery and connections are good. Please don't suggest it again. Battery and connections are good. What else ya got? Clicking in front of left knee, key in or out. Kills battery. When I first put the charger to it, the ammeter on the charger would bump up and down, in sympathy with the clicks. It's disconnected tonight. I'll study it again tomorrow. Pls don't tell me I have a bad battery or connections. If you suggest that, I know you didn't absorb all the symptoms I listed. Thnx all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted June 6, 2015 Share Posted June 6, 2015 (edited) You have a power problem. The clickig is possibly an effect of low voltage reaching the component. Just check voltage along the line until you reach the point where your source voltage drops off. Check here for the service manual for wire diagrams: http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/subaru_manual_scans/ Edited June 6, 2015 by Fairtax4me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rbob Posted June 6, 2015 Author Share Posted June 6, 2015 OK Fairtax, (oops think I said Fairfax, as in VA before, apologies) I think you may be on to something. I checked that, Infinite resistance until I poked it a little harder, then no resistance. It looked to have been hot though. Insulation had clearly been warm, nearly burnt off. But the link itself was intact, phisically and electrically. How would that relate to the click in front of my left knee? BTW, I found a schematic online I'm not smart enough to read. http://www.schnooze.com/files/legacy_manual/Legacy%20Wiring.pdf This is a great car, more power to the driver than my 350 chevies ever had. Ya shift down to 4 to pass and yr doing 80 before ya know it... Still, I don't get how that fusible link could cause the intermittant issues I have. IMHO, it works or it doesn't, the circuit completes or it doesn't. It doesn't sit and think and decide to complete after being an open circuit for a while. What's clicking in front of my left knee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rbob Posted June 6, 2015 Author Share Posted June 6, 2015 Signing off for tonight all. Pls offer yr thoughts and comments. I'll be back tomorrow. Rbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rbob Posted June 6, 2015 Author Share Posted June 6, 2015 Signing off for tonight all. Pls offer yr thoughts and comments. I'll be back tomorrow. Rbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted June 6, 2015 Share Posted June 6, 2015 The link is designed to melt if it is overloaded, but occasionally they will burn out with age due to corrosion or heat cycling. A damaged link will usually break if you pull on it. It can be partially burned and make/break the connection intermittently. There is also the possibility of corrosion or burning on the spade terminals of the link. If the link looks like it has been hot (has discolored insulation) its a good idea to replace it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rbob Posted June 6, 2015 Author Share Posted June 6, 2015 Replaced the link today. No change. Fuses all look good, will put the meter on them when the temp cools a bit later. Old one had been hot, had a few broken strands but was intact. So I've eliminate that but am still baffled. Neighbor kid is small and wiry I think he may be able to access the relay that I can't get at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rbob Posted June 9, 2015 Author Share Posted June 9, 2015 Fairtax....um, I get all that. Spent 4 yrs behind a service counter, then 6 more behind a parts counter. I know what a fuseable link is, and why it is different from a fuse, I get that. What is clicking in front of my left knee? Nobody on this board seems to know, including you. Ya all give me improbable solutions. My batt terminals are bad?! Haha. Quit pretending ya know the answer, you DONT! What is clicking in front of my left knee? Key in or out, Clearly Fairtax doesn't know the answer but pretends to. My connections are squeaky clean, Fairtax....Grow up. R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I don't know what's clicking by your knee. You're the only person here who can crawl under the dash and find it so I suggest you do that. You clearly don't want my help so I'll stop trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rbob Posted June 9, 2015 Author Share Posted June 9, 2015 That IS where the main power relay lives, right below the fuel pump one. I'm too big and gimpy to get there, I Could have 20 yrs ago, or 40 yrs ago. I think that's the problem but have sent the vehicle to a shop I know and trust, will report back with the results.Nobody on this board seems to have experience with that relay. Thanks ya all, but It's not a battery connection problem, nor a battery problem. It's the main relay. Thanks to all offering other opinions, but ya didn't read the symptoms I wrote correctly. How would a bad connection kill a live battery? It cant,by definition. Several of you claimed that that's my problem. I'll report back when Import car service calls me back. I've known those guys for 18 yrs and trust them far more than I trust free advice from amateurs. If ya know about that relay, write me. If ya wanna tell me it might be my battery, open a shop and let's see how long ya last. Again, what clicks in front of my left knee, key in or out? Fairtax, address that question. What clicks in front of my left knee? I promise it's not a bad battery or connections. I will report back when I get the call. This forum doesn't seem to be a place to come for useful information. IMHO. R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rbob Posted June 9, 2015 Author Share Posted June 9, 2015 Thnx fairtax. as I said, I'm too big to get there and my feet don't work much anymore after Chemo....But I will report what it turns out to be. Promise it's not bad connections. Neither you, nor anyone else on this board admits to any experience with that relay. Admit it. That was what I asked about and I got a bunch of responses saying it's the battery or connections. Sorry folks, but I will tell the truth when it's fixed. We'll see, maybe tomorrow but I expect Wednesday. I'll let ya'all know what it was. R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) The clicking in front of your left knee with the key off is probably the power lock/ alarm module. If it looses battery power, it tries to flash the parking lights until the reset procedure is done. There's usually a yellow sticker on the radiator support next to the battery that describes what to do. If not, there's a button switch hanging from the harness under the drivers side of the dash that you hold when turning the key or something, it's been a while since I've had to mess with one. Any interruption of the constant power from the battery to that module will put it into alarm mode. That's the only thing under that side of the dash that would click on and off in time even with the key turned off. The main relay does nothing when the key is off. The fuel pump relay could cycle if the green test mode connectors were plugged together, but that's only with the key on. You have a main power connection issue. Whether it be a bad cable, fusible link, connection, ect, but somewhere you have an intermittant conductivity failure in the main power distribution circuit. Connections can test OK with a ohm-meter, but not conduct electricity under load. That's where voltage drop tests come in, you see how well the circuit is performing while it's under load. SInce you said you had a fusible link that looked like it got hot, that would be the logical first place to start. As a side note, being a jerk to someone volunteering their time to try and help you, a stranger, is not the way to build good will around here. Feel free to ignore suggestions or advise, but don't mouth off. It's really rude. Edited June 10, 2015 by WoodsWagon 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86 Wonder Wedge Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Woods has nailed that clicking sound, most likely. And on a weak battery, the lights will be VERY dim, but the module/relay will still click. It's possible its a main relay clicking in and out, but if it were activating on its own, the dash, ECU, radio, ect would also be cycling. Could be an ignition switch issue, but the fact that is has worked properly before and will consistently until the voltage drops leads me to believe its not the culprit. I would first rule out an unstable battery. Pull it out, leave it with a parts house overnight on the trickle charger and get a few good tests done. If you really worked a parts counter that long, you know intermittent cells/batteries CAN and do cause weird issues. Second, with a known good battery, have a drain test (or properly use an ammeter) to see if anything is killing that battery or is shorted. You COULD have a main relay that is unstable/bad, but those are more of a good/bad scenario (usually due to an overvolt, short or VERY rapid cycling). These Denso starters won't turn under 10VDC, but the relay will click. Most of the electronics will behave strangely under 9VDC or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) "As a side note, being a jerk to someone volunteering their time to try and help you, a stranger, is not the way to build good will around here. Feel free to ignore suggestions or advise, but don't mouth off. It's really rude." Well said Woodswagen..........that needed to be said, and I could not have said it nicer or better. Edited June 10, 2015 by Rooster2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rbob Posted June 11, 2015 Author Share Posted June 11, 2015 Sorry woods, didn't mean to come off like a jerk. I respect the time and opinions folks offer here. But I get frustrated reading the same thing time after time, You are the one that, on this thread, hit the nail on the head, halfway. I try to be polite and will be more so in the future. What it was: A combination of burnt fuse link (which I replaced, on my own judgement and Fairtaxes advice) and a lock system gone bonkers. I replaced the fuse link after I had done the lock/key thing that I don't think anyone mentioned above. That is where the wireless security takes over. I did it in the wrong order. It had some bizarre symptoms, see my original post. Nobody here, mentioned "close and lock the car. Open the door with the KEY (not the fob) then try to start it." Thats what my mech friend said, and I'm his former parts guy. That disables the anti theft/alarms system. What the guy who actually fixed it told me was there is a 3rd step, disconnect and connect the battery. I did all those things in the wrong order. Repeatedly. In the wrong order. What Carl told me was do the above, disconnect and reconnect the battery, then try to start it. He didn't say with door open or closed.but he used to be a Sub dealer guy. Subaru taught him that. After you have done the key thing. Every time you try the key thing you have to start over. And disconnect then reconnect the battery in the proper sequence. I didn't. My bad Sorry for sounding like a fool or an angry soul. I'll be more polite in the future. Kudos to Fairtax. The link wasnt blown but was burnt and resistance was high. Replacing it changed nothing as the alarm system was on "tilt" which it apparently does when the batt gets disconnected. Apologies to those I offended. Cheers all and thanks for the help. R It worked. Back in the driveway now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reluctant mechanic Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I cannot tell from your last post what is actually the proper sequence to reset the alarm. Would you mind terribly giving us a 1. 2. 3. list of the actions required to reset? Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurm70 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Guys I am new to Subaru and posted a no start problem today in another post. This post has helped me understand what has been happening with my intermittent no power to the starter. I did not know that low voltage on its own would trigger the anti-theft. On a couple of occasions I have been trying to troubleshoot the car and it just stopped being able to crank. My daughter who owns the car and only calls when it is not working filled me in this afternoon when I asked. Above it said to unhook the battery but the way my daughter just showed me did not require such. I am going to explain here and on my own post and it is suddenly clear what has happened. As I was cranking the car I could hear the battery was losing voltage and cranking was fading. I do not know if this is intentional on Subaru's part but I imagine it does help protect components. The anti-theft kicked in and cranking ceased. In frustration I was shutting every up and stopped to get old service records from the glove box. It was then that I heard the relay cycling off and on. I was able to get it pause when I triggered a couple of things and then it would restart. I saw the red light flashing on the dash but I though that was normal as I had already looked the doors even though i had not closed. As I started to walk away I saw the parking lights were flashing. After a bit they stopped. I asked my daughter when she got here.m So the way that my daughter says she was told to do is it. To lock the door from the outside with the key and then unlock. Open the door and with the key in the on position hold the black button under the left hand edge of the dash down by your knee. She held the button with the key on for the count of twenty and the light on the dash reset and she was able to turn the car over. She did say that it is strange because sometimes when it happens and she hold the button after the twenty count the the door lock cycle 3 times and other times she just see the light go out. Either way it solved the my ghost issue. Of course before you try any of this you need to make sure that battery voltage is back to normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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