Degrees of engine compromise in head gasket and other issues?

[ThosL]

So my 2.2 engine overheated significantly over the weekend, one of the narrow finger width hoses over the engine blew and I chanced it driving short distances and putting water in the radiator, while the vehicle was hot with steam coursing out of the two openings on the top of the radiator.  I don't know how badly it is damaged.  No water or white smoke coming out of the exhaust or oil in the radiator. 
 

So what are the levels or engine damage or head gasket problems and symptoms of each with limitations of driving the vehicle?

 

This is my guess:  head gasket leak where bubbles come out of the radiator into the overflow tank or become apparent if you have the cap off, minimal bubbling to more serious. How long can a vehicle with the minor problems be driven?  Is overheating the main issue?  Since steam is so powerful as it builds, what are ways to limit it, by either cooling the engine or taking pressure off it?  Does coolant fluid help in these overheating problems or is it just an expensive fluid to be used when the vehicle is running properly?  If you have to keep adding fluid, you are burning through a lot of $12 a gallon coolant.

[ccrinc]

If you overheated it "significantly", the head gaskets are, with out a doubt, at the very least compromised.  They are exceptionally sturdy, but are definitely on their way out.  Each time you get it hot, the gaskets and the heads get more damaged.  Eventually, coolant WILL get into the oil and damage the bearings as well.

 

Driving it at all at this point is taking a huge risk of damaging the engine beyond repair.  You can not limit the damage except by not driving it.

 

Coolant is not just "an expensive liquid" and it has its limitations.  Since the cars normal operating temperature is over at or near the normal boiling point of water, coolant helps keep the fluid in your engine from literally boiling. BUT, it also inhibits rust in places like your water pump and radiator.   Once the pressurization of the system is breached, coolant will not help except by its rust inhibiting properties. 

 

CN:  it got too hot, don't drive it, fix it.

[ThosL]

I'm looking for a used replacement.

[lstevens76]

If you pull the engine and do the head gasket yourself you can do it for less than $500.   $500 is the cheapest you can find a used engine here, but I don't know about there.

 

When you pull the heads you will be able to look at the cylinder walls, rings, and pistons to get an idea of there condition.  On my EJ22 w/ 200k+ miles they were fine and the only problem was the head gaskets + seals.

[ThosL]

I'm looking for a replacement vehicle, probably Subaru.  I don't have the tools, etc., to repair or replace the engine, and no one around here would do it for less than $1000.  Plus the vehicle isn't worth $1000 even before the head gasket issue.  But it still runs like a top.

[1 Lucky Texan]

drive it. if you must leave 'home base' for a roadtrip, rent a car.

[Fairtax4me]

So you've fixed the leak?

 

Are you now still having overheating problems?

These cooling systems can be tricky to get all of the air out of. Open the bleeder cap on the passenger side of the radiator to help get air out of the block while filling with coolant. Once full, run the engine to operating temp and the radiator fans to cycle on then back off, then allow the engine to cool completely.

After cooling, top off the radiator with coolant if needed.

 

No way to really tell how long it will last. You may start burning coolant immediately, or you may get another 50k out of it. Just be sure to keep an eye on the coolant level. If you notice it getting low and you have to add coolant on a regular basis, time will be limited.

[1 Lucky Texan]

consider an oil change too - that was what was trying to cool your engine after the coolant left. It might be cooked.

[ThosL]

Typical symptom according to F and S auto; overheating when you go up a hill; also he said none of the gasket fixes in a bottle work.  I said "did you apply for your refund?", he said no.  I said I got mine when I used Blue Devil though it took some doing. 

 

Also he said air pockets in the system will cause the same symptoms.

[lstevens76]

It depends on the symptoms and situation to whether Blue Devil will work.  Personally I don't like sealants because you risk clogging other issues, but when you need a cheap fix they offer a possibility.

 

If your going to do it though, don't use the Blue Devil pour and go.  I've heard of Blue Devil working on Subarus before and I know some people with personal experience using it, but they did the full product not the pour and go.  My experience on the pour and go was it sealed the leak which was causing water into the cylinder, but it did not solve the exhaust gases into the coolant.

 

The full product, run correctly, has a higher possibility of fixing gasses into the coolant due to the way you have to apply it.

[ThosL]

I'm pretty skeptical of the product though if you get the guarantee, don't clog up water lines, and have a chance at success it may be worth trying.  I used the K and W Fiberlock, which is a pour and go product supposedly compatible with coolant, which is hard to believe.

 

I looked at a bunch of youtube videos nothing convincing especially on major issues.  

[WoodsWagon]

Getting all the air "burped" out of the cooling system after draining it and refilling can be hard. The thermostat on these engines is on the return side of the cooling system, so if there's trapped air pockets, hot coolant won't circulate back to the thermostat and it never opens, overheating the engine.

 

Parking it nose up, like on ramps or a curb can help to get the radiator cap higher above the engine and heater core. Filling it with a snug fitting funnel in the cap can help. Revving the engine can help. I had a 2011 in the garage the other day that took 20 minutes to finally get it burped after doing a t-belt water pump job.

 

Main thing to check for is hot air coming out of the heater. If it blows cool or makes gurgling noises in the dash, then there's still air trapped in the cooling system.

 

I once got a 1992 EJ22 so hot it lost power when I was stuck offroading in snow, and it was unharmed when it cooled back down.

[ThosL]

The heater is working most of the time now, which tells me the air is mostly getting burped out; but since I have to check water level every time I'm ready to run it, and add water, who knows what is really going on.

 

It could be in one of the many overheating cycles over the weekend, when I poured water in both radiator openings with steam coming out, the engine or heads got damaged but it still runs well.  One of the local mechanics said they would do the Blue Devil try if I wanted charging me for an hour and a half labor.  It may be worth the try, since I would get the BD money back.

[desertsubaru]

The heater is working most of the time now, which tells me the air is mostly getting burped out; but since I have to check water level every time I'm ready to run it, and add water, who knows what is really going on.

 

It could be in one of the many overheating cycles over the weekend, when I poured water in both radiator openings with steam coming out, the engine or heads got damaged but it still runs well.  One of the local mechanics said they would do the Blue Devil try if I wanted charging me for an hour and a half labor.  It may be worth the try, since I would get the BD money back.

Pouring cold water into a hot engine will crack/warp a head real fast.

[ThosL]

But the question is whether pouring it into the radiator goes into the engine and damages it there.  I have always heard that pouring water into the radiator will not damage the engine.

[desertsubaru]

But the question is whether pouring it into the radiator goes into the engine and damages it there.  I have always heard that pouring water into the radiator will not damage the engine.

How low was the radiator when you poured it in? How much water? Was the engine running?

[ThosL]

I probably poured in a half gallon or more into both top openings, when it was running and not, several times.

[desertsubaru]

 You have most likely blown a head gasket and now maybe cracked/warped a head. No snake oil in a can you  pour into it will fix it. Either do a HG replacement having the heads pressure checked and if not cracked have them shaved. Or if it is an engine with close to 200k on it just get a jy engine and drop it in.

Edited June 19, 2015 by desertsubaru

[lstevens76]

I know thosl said he wont' do head gaskets so this is to clarify for other people that might catch this thread.

 

1.)  Just because an engine has 200k and has been overheated does not necessitate replacement with a used engine.  If you can't hear that engine run, there is no guarantee it will run right when you put it in.  You can talk to a variety of machine shops and the newer engines ('90+) can easily go 300k to 400k.  If there hasn't been water in the oil then the bearings, etc... are probably fine.

 

2.)  On these engines even getting them hot multiple times does not tend to severely warp/crack the heads.  That was an issue back in the '80s and primarily with Ford V6 engines (specifically the heads made in Mexico).  For all the cars I've seen that have been overheated numerous times, the only ones I ever found with cracked heads were Ford Thunderbirds w/ the V6 and Mexican built heads...........

 

If your willing to pull an engine in general it's better to inspect the cylinders on these engines and move forward from there than just immediately go to an engine swap.  Although most junkyards offer a warranty with an engine I've actually found pieces of rubber gloves in cylinders on jy engines and other issues.  If it doesn't run right when you put it in, then you may end up pulling it again.  If you can avoid that, why go through it?

[desertsubaru]

I know thosl said he wont' do head gaskets so this is to clarify for other people that might catch this thread.

 

1.)  Just because an engine has 200k and has been overheated does not necessitate replacement with a used engine.  If you can't hear that engine run, there is no guarantee it will run right when you put it in.  You can talk to a variety of machine shops and the newer engines ('90+) can easily go 300k to 400k.  If there hasn't been water in the oil then the bearings, etc... are probably fine.

 

2.)  On these engines even getting them hot multiple times does not tend to severely warp/crack the heads.  That was an issue back in the '80s and primarily with Ford V6 engines (specifically the heads made in Mexico).  For all the cars I've seen that have been overheated numerous times, the only ones I ever found with cracked heads were Ford Thunderbirds w/ the V6 and Mexican built heads...........

 

If your willing to pull an engine in general it's better to inspect the cylinders on these engines and move forward from there than just immediately go to an engine swap.  Although most junkyards offer a warranty with an engine I've actually found pieces of rubber gloves in cylinders on jy engines and other issues.  If it doesn't run right when you put it in, then you may end up pulling it again.  If you can avoid that, why go through it?

You maybe right and I may be wrong or I may be right and you wrong

because we cant visibly inspect his engine  but pouring cold water into

any steaming hot engine even an all cast iron engine can warp/crack the

head or blow the HG.

I had it happen to an EA82 and an Ej2.2 and on a bulletproof dodge slant six.

 

 I know he said he does not want to replace his HGs so that leaves him

with 5 choices. 1 ,Replace with either a known good used engine, 2

Replace with rebuilt engine, 3 Pay someone to do the HGs  4 sell the car

or 5 junk the car.

[WoodsWagon]

The heater is working most of the time now, which tells me the air is mostly getting burped out; but since I have to check water level every time I'm ready to run it, and add water, who knows what is really going on..

 

Well, until the heater works constantly, you're still having air bubbles in the system, and that will cause overheating.

 

Overheating does not necesarily equal blown head gaskets. Unless you start the car up and it's puffing exhaust out the radiator cap, you can't be sure it's the headgaskets. I had an EJ25d that was that bad by the way, and I put headgaskets in it and it went another 90k before the car rusted out. If there's any question as to the cooling system being fully burped, work on that first before condemning the headgaskets.

[ThosL]

You maybe right and I may be wrong or I may be right and you wrong

because we cant visibly inspect his engine  but pouring cold water into

any steaming hot engine even an all cast iron engine can warp/crack the

head or blow the HG.

I had it happen to an EA82 and an Ej2.2 and on a bulletproof dodge slant six.

 

 I know he said he does not want to replace his HGs so that leaves him

with 5 choices. 1 ,Replace with either a known good used engine, 2

Replace with rebuilt engine, 3 Pay someone to do the HGs  4 sell the car

or 5 junk the car.

Other choices are available; run the vehicle now with 292K miles, constantly watch the temperature gauge, do everything possible to keep it from overheating.

 

Some lessons here are catching overheating problems early, realizing any leak could spell disaster for the engine and the aluminum heads.  If the leak happens when you are far from home, you will have few options because getting help on the spur of the moment is extremely unlikely and the auto parts place that I stopped at the two young guys just wanted to stay behind the counter in their comfort zone and say "head gasket blown" because it was a Subaru.  If you don't care enough to take the problem seriously no one will and many mechanics do not do their due diligence like the one I relied on.  You go to them for a specific job and they do not look for potential threats to the integrity of the vehicle.  

[ccrinc]

#1 EVERY time you open that closed loop cooling system to add liquid, you are also adding air!  If you can't get it burped completely EVERY time, you will always have air in the system.

 

#2 Aluminum doesn't like heat.  Every time it overheats, whatever is still, by the grace of all that's holy holding your head gaskets together, gets weaker.

 

#3 Gotta respectfully disagree with lstevens76   "On these engines even getting them hot multiple times does not tend to severely warp/crack the heads."   We've been building Subaru engines for over 20 years and I can tell you without a single doubt that EJ22 heads warp like crazy.  I have personally measured heads so warped that we wouldn't even bother to resurface them.   Although they don't crack often between the seats like the older EA82 heads, they certainly crack down below the seats and into the water jackets.

 

#4 Every time your engine gets hot, the oil viscosity is also affected.  I hope you're running cheapo 10W40 oil because it's going to need more frequent changing, and using a thinner synthetic or expensive oil is just a waste.

 

#5 I know ThosL is just keeping it going as long as he can, and that's ok.  Sometimes, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.  Believe me, back in the day, I've been there, done that too.  Hell, I drive a 13 year old Subaru myself.  But, no insult intended, a lot of people on this particular forum are notoriously cheap and will advocate some of the damnedest "fixes" I've never heard of and wouldn't even consider, like cooling system repair in a bottle.  Some of us (yes, me included) can't afford a new car or don't want one. 

 

All in all, this is my favorite Sube forum, I come here because everyone is (usually) courteous, helpful and respectful.  There are some truly good, experienced people who are more than happy to share their knowledge, but there's also some BS.  (it's the internet, imagine that)  Sorting out what's BS and what's actual is difficult when one is new and asking for help.  Good luck to you, hard lesson learned.

[ThosL]

There are lots of reviews of products like Blue Devil on Amazon, 100+, some good some unhappy; mechanics hate it, because with all that pressure how could it possibly work?  Hard to know.  My engine may be too far gone.

 

http://www.amazon.com/BlueDevil-Head-Gasket-Sealer-ounce/dp/B000NOO798

[1 Lucky Texan]

There are lots of reviews of products like Blue Devil on Amazon, 100+, some good some unhappy; mechanics hate it, because with all that pressure how could it possibly work?  Hard to know.  My engine may be too far gone.

 

http://www.amazon.com/BlueDevil-Head-Gasket-Sealer-ounce/dp/B000NOO798

1 out of 4 gave it 1 star. There is a success story with a Subaru there - but it didn't seem to have a typical leak, 'smoke' out the tailpipe was mentioned - not comb. chamber bubbles in the radiator.