lstevens76 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Ok, I'm going to start from the beginning so you get the whole picture. I bought this car last Friday with a knock, but it didn't sound like any rod knock I've ever heard so I assumed it was probably a tensioner. I proceeded to drive it home, 23 miles, from where I purchased it. Most of this (probably 18 to 20 miles) was freeway speeds. It got "warm" not hot on the way home (very hot day) and to cool it down I of course kicked the defroster on high (so it was blowing heat directly on me) which worked. It died when at one stop sign and took a few minutes to get started, but did restart and went. Once I get home I realized there was a crack in the upper radiator housing, so I ordered a radiator. It hasn't been "Driven" since. I started it up a couple of times to listen to the noise and still couldn't verify location. So, yesterday I decided it just seemed more live valve train noise and it was "WAY" overdue for an oil change (14k miles) and I needed to drain out the 2 quarts overfull it was (other than my driving home and a short drive of about 5 miles it hadn't been driven since that happened). On the way home I had power issues going up hill, but it ran decent. I changed the oil and put 1 qt of MMO (Marvel Miracle Oil) in with 3.2 qts of oil and a new filter with the plans of letting it run for 5 minutes or so, letting it sit for a while, and repeating the process to clean the gunk out and see if I could clear up the noise................. It was running fine (other than the knock) and then just shut off. No noise, no bang, nothing new. Just literally shut off. I tried restarting it and it wouldn't start. After a ton of research I came the conclusion that: 1.) All the TB idler pulleys and the tensioner were original at 193k (I spoke with the place who did it at 130k and although they couldn't confirm they don't replace them unless they are broke). 2.) This would make a valid reason for the knock especially considering that the lower right (Passenger side) pulley I was able to shift up and down. So this morning I take to changing the water pump, tensioner, idler pulleys and belt (I know it had 30k left on it but I would rather not have to get back in until I'm ready). With all this done I tried to start, and same issue. It cranks, occasionally acts like it's almost going to start, but again won't start. I pulled the line off the fuel filter out line (to the rails) and it spurted fuel so I'm getting fuel it seems. I also changed out one plug wire, but wow are those a PITA. Even with one plug wire changed still problems. But I also noticed the plug wires are coated in oil, so it needs grommetts. And yes I know this could be a problem, but flat out no start? Any advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 I guess I'll run my battery to O'Reilly's and have them charge it then see what happens. I was just reading on a 2.5RS that wouldn't start because of the battery and I can't vouch for the battery in my grandfather's pickup that I tested with. It's an old everstart and it will start an old '87 Ranger, but they don't have the electronics this Subaru does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Ok, so swapped plugs and wires with new ones. Plug wires kind of disintegrated (left 1/2 on the plug) when taking them out. Brand new battery (Les Schwab replaced it). Still no start, but have a clicking in the lower left of the dash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertsubaru Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Getting spark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Yeah, definitely getting spark. I disconnected a plug wire at the coil and had a friend watch for spark. I am questioning the fuel pump relay due to location and the clicking noise, but when I pulled the fuel line to the rails I had fuel there. I should check it again I guess. Wish Torque would hook up without the car running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertsubaru Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 That fuel could have just been built up pressure.. Next step after you are sure it is getting fuel do a compression check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Everyone jumps straight to a compression test. It was running, idleing fine, then just shut off. No other sounds, no other symptom at the time, just shut off. And yeah, I connected the service connector and I could hear the fuel pump. I checked resistance on the crank and cam sensors, both gave 2 ohms which is within spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertsubaru Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Everyone jumps straight to a compression test. Maybe because you need four things for a gas engine to work. Fuel, air. spark and compression. that's why I said check it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Ok, backup. I had someone come over and crank it for me. It was running yesterday when I pulled the plug wires to see if the noise changed w/ a plug unplugged and I had tons of spark. Today, well a little intermittently..................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Well I tested the secondary side and got 13.xx resistance on the coil, which is in spec. But no matter how I set my multimeter I couldn't get a reading off the primary side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 I guess I should add I just gave a friend of mine grief that told me I had spark earlier today. lol A couple little arcs occasionally is not spark. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Are you testing spark with a regular spark plug or with an HEI type spark tester? A regular spark plug can spark at less than 1000v when its in open air. But under compression it takes 25-30,000v for the spark to jump that same plug gap. An HEI type tester has center electrode that is recessed, so the gap is has to jump is about 3/4" long. Takes about 20,000v to jump that size gap. If the coil is shorted, it can create enough voltage to jump the plug gap and to be visible in open air, but not enough to jump the gap under compression. It has the 4 pin coil right? Check for 12v reaching the coil on Pin 2. Should be a yellow wire. Pins 1&4 are primary coil ground to the ECU. Pin 3 goes to engine ground. Primary resistance should be about 0.7 ohms. Set your ohm meter to its lowest scale. Check pins 1-2 and 2-4. Edited July 1, 2015 by Fairtax4me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Yesterday I pulled the plug wires from the wrong end (like an idiot) when testing for the knock noise. I.E. disconnect each plug wire one at a time and find out if the sound changes (which it never did alter at all). During this I could see the spark, very obviously, coming off the coil. It would arc right down to the block and ground there. Tonight when I tested it where i could see (instead of me being the one cranking the key) I had no spark, but occasionally (like once every 3 or 4 seconds) I would see a single arc come off that coil, if that. Then, now that it's dark, I went out and disconnected all 4 plug wires at the coil and cranked it (since I could see the coil and it was dark enough I would be able to see any arcing) and nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 Ok, so I borrowed a coil and a code reader. Although no DTC I decided to replace the Crankshaft Position Sensor since I swapped the coil w/ one from a friend. Still little to no spark from the coil so I started more testing based on the FSM. I tested for the 10v+ on Pin 3 of the connector, it's there. I then did this test: Check if voltage varies synchronously with engine speed when cranking, while monitoring voltage between ignition coil & ignitor assembly connector and engine ground. It says to use pin 4 so I did. I got nothing. No voltage what so ever............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 Lets add some more info. Code Reader says: MIL: ON DTC: 0 I pulled the Crankshaft position sensor and attempted to start it then checked for codes and still got no codes. Thinking fried ECU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 What do you mean you pulled it? Was it still plugged in? Won't set a code if its plugged in. Do you have 12v at the coil when cranking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 Ok, explain this better. I disconnected the crankshaft position sensor to try and get it to trip a code. The check engine light does not turn off after a few seconds but remains on. The code reader will connect to the computer, reads the MIL as on, but no diagnostic trouble codes. When testing at the coil with the harness connector unplugged and during cranking I get no voltage at pins 1 & 4. With the harness connected and pushing the lead on the multimeter into the connector I occasionally get a .1 to .3, I think I might have seen 1v once, power to pins 1 and 4. So far this leads me to believe the ECU is probably bad. Oh, and the cruise did not work when I purchased it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Pin 1&4 are ground control circuit to the ECU. ECU grounds those independently to fire the coils. If you have voltage at pin 2, there should be voltage at pins 1&4 as well. No voltage at those means either the coil is open inside, or the control cicruit is shorted to ground. Double check and make sure you have voltage at the coil on pin 2 while cranking. If yes, Unplug the coil and check resistance to ground on the wires for 1&4. If 0 resistance, go inside and unplug the ECU, then recheck. If still 0, wiring is shorted to ground. If now Infinite resistance, ECU is bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 It's confirmed, bad ECU it seems. How rare is this? LKQ local here has one, but they don't list mileage. It's out of a '99. I couldn't identify what subaru calls it so I couldn't even look for what a new OEM one might cost. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthCoast Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Very rare for them to go bad. Double check everything. Autowrecking.com will ship you one with a 30 day guarantee for $65. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Not common, but it does happen. How many other things have you tried unplugging to see if it'll set codes? Fuel injectors should set codes right away. Dunno why I didn't think about those before. Edited July 2, 2015 by Fairtax4me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 I'll try that, but I'm at a loss. The obd2 reader I'm using gives live data and I'm getting an RPM reading on it when cranking. I swapped the ECU ($135) and still no spark. I've checked the ground on the intake and a few other grounds. I've replaced the crankshaft position sensor and everything looks ok. I'm at a WTF point and it's starting to piss me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 Ok, cam sensor replaced with a known good one (out of my '96 OBS that was running when I replaced it). Crankshaft position sensor replaced with new one. ECU swapped for a different one. Coil swapped for a used "supposed good" one. Still no spark............... The OBD2 Live data feed shows the RPMs (about 114 when cranking). If I understand correctly that is the crankshaft position sensor so the ECU is getting a reading from it. Check engine light does come on. Reader does connect to computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthCoast Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Now you're just replacing good parts with good parts. Stop wasting time and money. Slow down and recheck grounds and power with a meter thoroughly. Start at the battery and work your way forward. It's most likely going to be something stupid and you'll face-palm yourself when you find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 Ok, I will say I don't do well work outside in the sun in 100 degree weather and Kevin was right, I missed something stupid and basic and feel completely stupid. I thought more than once, and even pointed it out to someone else, that the crank pulley just didn't look positioned right. Well it wasn't. It had scooted out a little bit, just enough to not be making proper contact with the sensor. But having spare sensors is never a bad thing. The bad news I'll post in another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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