ztrain727 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Hello Folks - Just got the first head off my 1997 Legacy Wagon, under 15k miles since it was done last, and look what I found! Previous mechanic (yes, it was done at a shop) put the wrong gasket on, obstructing the coolant passages. Totally blew open parts of the gasket. So now I'm at a bit of a loss. First thought was coolant obstruction = inadequate cooling = other engine damage? It overheated to a stall when the HG failed but I never noticed high temps prior, just below the middle. I'm curious if this block is toast. Anyway, if I were to keep it, where can I find this gasket!? I have two sets now, both for '90-'96 with the wrong cooling passages like above. I can't seem to find 97's anywhere, a few 98-99. I'm at a loss. Any help greatly appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertsubaru Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Rock auto has them. FEL-PRO Part # 9854PT How many miles on the engine? I would be a little worried if it offer heated to a stall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 OEM Phase 2 EJ22 Head Gaskets. Felro makes a set but they want more for it than you can usually get OEM ones. That's an EJ222 or EJ223. I would be having a discussion with that mechanic myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 No, that's the correct gasket. That type of expansion is pretty typical, but usually only see that on gaskets that have 150,000 on them. It looks more like the gasket rusted because of the wrong type of coolant being used in the system, or the system was poorly maintained by a previous owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ztrain727 Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 That is the correct gasket!? Seems odd. Why would the coolant passages in the gasket be smaller than in the heads? You can see from the residue and broken gasket that it created a pocket of coolant in the gasket because of the restricted flow. It looks like that's where coolant and oil mixed. Doesn't seem right to me, but your word means a lot my than my speculation. So could the repeat failure be a symptom of warped heads in that case? I was expected to find junk gaskets, but they look OEM which has me wondering... FEL-PRO Part # 9854PT is the gasket I have. Also have a beck/arnley that looks identical. Both say for 1990-1996 legacy, and the coolant passages are not identical to those in the heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 The different sized holes help regulate the coolant flow through the jacket so it flows evenly through-out the jacket area, rather than just flowing full speed through only one area. See that little check mark inside a circle on the gasket? That's the logo for Fuji Heavy Industries, the parent company of Subaru. Later gaskets the were redesigned and will totally block the ports in the head if you have the wrong gasket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ztrain727 Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) Ah interesting... I would be at a total loss without your help. Thank you! So, I guess the million dollar question is why did it fail so quickly. The gaskets both popped right off the heads so I do think they're fresh, but they're bulging and cracked really badly. I saw on another thread grossgary posted 3 possibilities: 1. heads are not flat or the repair wasn't done right (very possible) 2. headgaskets are cheap (unlikely given the Fuji Heavy Industries logo, and bolts look original) 3. it was previously overheated severely and the block is compromised...cylinder liners shifted or something else. (very possible) Without further diagnosis, I guess this leaves two options: a. swap the block b. resurface the heads, put it all back together and hope for the best. I'm going to be selling this car once it gets me across the country but I don't want the same fate for the next owner so I'm trying to do this proper. Edited July 12, 2015 by ztrain727 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I would go with improperly repaired. These engines are really not that picky. Those composite graphite gaskets cover up a lot of imperfection, but there still are quite a few things that can go wrong and compromise the gasket. Block or heads weren't cleaned properly. Oil residue or dust/dirt on the sealing surfaces. Torque sequence wasn't followed properly. Oil got on the gasket because too much oil was used on the head bolts. The engine could have been air locked and overheated on the first start, or multiple times right after installation. Wrong or contaminated coolant used. Have the heads machined so you have a nice flat and clean surface there. Clean the block well and use 1,000 grit sand paper on a good sanding block to do a final finish on the block. Wet the block and paper with Wd40. Clean the block and heads with acetone or brake cleaner and be sure to wipe away any dust afterwards. Go easy on the oil on the head bolts. Some people want to dunk the whole thing in oil and it just pushes back up out of the bolt hole when you thread the bolt in. You only need to oil the end 4-5 threads, and a drop between the washer and the bolt head. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccrinc Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 What ^^^He^^^ said. Except that I would figure a way to check the condition of the bearings too. Repeated overheating isn't good for them. Emily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ztrain727 Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) Thank you so much! Really the kind of excellent, precise response I was in need of. I will go ahead and work on resurfacing the heads as per the DIY method. If they are seeming too warped for that, I'll find a machine shop. Is there any way to check the bearing without tearing down the block? Engine is still in the car since I don't have a hoist, and I'd prefer to keep it that way if possible. And should I be looking for cracks in the heads/block? When it last overheated, I was stranded, but managed to top the coolant the next day and drive 300 miles with no further overheating. Edited July 12, 2015 by ztrain727 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccrinc Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 My first question would be "how much metal is in the pan?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ztrain727 Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 I didn't pull the pan. Wasn't planning on it. Could I get an idea from the oil filter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) Gotta drain the oil anyway, so drain it into a clean pan or bucket and look for swirls. Cutting the filter open is a good idea also. Edited July 12, 2015 by Fairtax4me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstevens76 Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Put a filter or cheese cloth on top of the pan. And stick your finger through the drain hole when it's empty to check for sludge. Any sludge buildup could be holding the metal from coming out with the oil of there are problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ztrain727 Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 Didn't see any swirls in the drained oil. The catch pan was clean. I will try the other methods and see what I find. Again, many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ztrain727 Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 I'm not seeing any signs of metal shavings which is a relief. If I stir up the oil, I see swirls but they are orange which I take it is from coolant. I got the heads resurfaced today, going to start in putting everything together tomorrow. I got a beck/arnley head gasket set and I wasn't planning on taking off the valve covers but looking at the kit I'm now having second thoughts. Is it highly recommended I replace everything in the kit? The last mechanic did the timing belt and water pump but not sure how much else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 I would probably replace the cam seals and the O-ring behind the cam support on the drivers head, and the cam plug on the back of the head if that kit has it. Also change the o-ring under the cam cap on the back of the passenger head. Were the heads machined? If so be sure to remove the valve covers and make sure there are no shavings left in the heads. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ztrain727 Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 Sounds like a plan! I resurfaced the heads at home as per the DIY method so no shavings. I had to take a lot of metal off, especially on the driver's side. There were some strange scuffs including a small gouge right under one fire ring (looks like it held though), and the bottom center of both heads was very recessed, which explains why pockets had formed there in the gaskets. I remembered that prior to overheating the combustion leak tester had repeatedly come up negative, giving me the impression that it was not a HG failure. Examining the heads and gasket, I wonder if it's possible that there was never a failure around the fire rings, just between the coolant and oil passages. I suppose it doesn't make much sense given the low pressure as compared to the fire ring, but it would explain those early symptoms. Anyway, thanks so much once again. I feel encouraged in light of the fact that I'm almost positive the heads were not resurfaced last repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ztrain727 Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) Update: All 3 valve cover bolts snapped off on the driver side head. I guess the last mechanic over-torqued them pretty bad. I had to order them from the dealer. Managed to get them all out. So now the question lies: should I touch the bolts on the other head? Are they likely to fail if I just leave them alone? The valve cover seal looks pretty new, but the grommets are beat up and one is leaking a bit. Edited July 13, 2015 by ztrain727 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Check them now while it's out of the car. Then if any bolts need to be drilled out its easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ztrain727 Posted July 14, 2015 Author Share Posted July 14, 2015 Well, interestingly none of the driver side valve cover bolts broke. I guess they just over-torqued one side. I could feel the difference. I'm going to put one bolt in one cover, two in the other and start reassembling. I'll pick up the new bolts tomorrow and pit them on with the heads in the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ztrain727 Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) So I got the thing put back together today. I understand why people pull the engine after doing the HG torque sequence in car - not fun. Anyway, got my timing marks set, everything looked good. I fired it up, let it idle a bit, killed it and checked the timing marks (I kept the cover and v-belts off for now) and all seems well. Fired it up again and let it idle for a few minutes, then noticed some smoke or steam coming from somewhere near the back of the driver side head. Killed it immediately. I could feel heat around both heads. Please advise. I don't want to fry the head gaskets again. I've burped the coolant system before after replacing a cracked hose, but always while idling. Edited July 17, 2015 by ztrain727 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 How long had it been idling when you noticed the smoke? About 3-4 minutes is when you'l start to see smoke from oil and grease or spilled antifreeze on the exhaust heat shields. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ztrain727 Posted July 18, 2015 Author Share Posted July 18, 2015 It was about that long. It's funny - I was just thinking maybe it was from spraying down the exhaust manifolds with WD40 to get some rust off. Anyway, you're always a step ahead, and I appreciate it very much. I'm going to refill the cooling system with the small hose siphon method tomorrow and then run the engine again keeping an eye on the exhaust. It was late evening last time, so not the best light for diagnosing the problem. Again, thanks for bearing with me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ztrain727 Posted July 19, 2015 Author Share Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) UPDATE: Got the show on the road - drove down to baltimore 160 miles with no issues. Temps held absolutely steady at all RPMs. Just wanted to say thank you for all the support! Fairtax4me I think I owe you a case of beer next time I'm in your neck of the woods... The smoke/steam was in fact residue burning off the exhaust. I ended up also rebuilding my power steering pump (was leaking from the pump body) and swapping the thermostat (it was not OEM). Hoping for smooth travels to the West! Thanks again for all the help! Edited July 19, 2015 by ztrain727 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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