Almost done my engine swap.. running into problems now.

[Injulen]

Hey, I haven't posted here in a long time but I just finished swapping a '95 EJ22 with dual port heads from an auto Legacy into a '99 Outback 5-speed that had a EJ25D. 

I had done a bunch of research and determined that this should be plug and play. 

So far, it has been. The EJ22 dropped in, bolted up, connectors plugged in great. The EJ22 was running the day before the swap and running well. I pulled both engines out from both cars right next to eachother so I had lots of extra nuts and bolts and was able to cross-reference between them well. 

Then came the startup. I know one issue I'm having already, my ground strap to the starter isn't right. I currently have no way to connect the strap directly to the starter because the lower nut is rounded off and the upper bolt was over-torqued on installation and is now ready to shear right off. Short of taking everything back apart and drilling out that bolt, my only option was to try a different spot for the ground strap. I went with the unused threaded hole not even 2" away on the engine block. This is not adequate. The starter won't do anything. I grabbed a jumper cable and went straight from the negative terminal on the battery and attached it to the starter housing. Voila, it cranked right away. So I know I need to fix that and I will. But now..

When it cranked over it fired right up, yay! And then it stalled out. I figured, eh, fresh startup, probably needs more fuel. Started it again. Fired up. Running rough. Have to keep my foot in the throttle or it stalls. I found a random vacuum line that has nowhere to connect to now and thought maybe that was it so I used vice grips and folded it over and tried again, no bueno. I'll get a pic of that vacuum line for reference cause I have no idea what its for. 

I have a scan-tool on the way from Amazon to help diagnose but would love anyone's thoughts on the matter here. 

Another note, I might have a short somewhere because after letting it sit for awhile the fully charged battery was about flat. And when I removed the jumper cable from the starter after diagnosing, I got a much larger than usual arc and some spark shower. Is there a common mistake made in engine swaps that would cause a big short? 

I'll reply to this post soon with a picture of the vacuum line and also a video I recorded of the rough running. I know someone is going to say something about the timing being off but I was bold and didn't do the timing belt replacement when the engine was out because it was fairly fresh and I know the timing is right to begin with because it was running just fine in the Legacy. Maybe though someone will come along and tell me that my research was wrong and the EJ25D ECU cannot run the EJ22 as direct plug and play. 

Any tips, thoughts, or criticism is welcome.

 

Edited July 15, 2015 by Injulen

[Fairtax4me]

Is the intake tube all hooked up and clamped right?

Large hose off the IAC is connected at both ends?

 

Battery draw, check all your lights inside.

The alternator that's in the car now. Is it the original or did it come from the donor car? Is it remanufactured?

[Injulen]

IAC vacuum hose was the first thing I checked, hooked up good. Other bits on the intake seem right too. I have a hose coming from each valve cover to the top airbox, a PCV hose, and then the IAC one. Without being right in front of it, there might be one other but I can't think of what it'd go to. 

Lights are all off inside. Another thing I forgot to mention, the headlights stayed on for several seconds after I took the keys out when I tried starting it the first time. I've never ever seen that happen before and they shut back off while I was watching but the corner light stayed on then shut off a second later. Keys were in my hand, parking light switch was off. 

Alternator is a good thought, I'm not sure which car's alternator ended up on there. I think it was the one from the EJ22 though. Both of them were working alright to begin with, I've had the 99 outback as a daily driver for awhile until the headgaskets just went and then the 95 Legacy has been a yard buggy but always kept its charge and recharged, better than any other vehicle in my yard does. I don't actually know if either alternator is a reman since both cars have 200,000+ miles on them and I bought them late in their life.

 

Edited July 15, 2015 by Injulen

[Injulen]

Here's the vid. It really sounds like the IACV hose is unhooked but I checked it. I'll be triple checking the vacuum first I guess.

 

Edited July 15, 2015 by Injulen

[Injulen]

And here is the pic of the mystery vacuum line I couldn't figure out that I folded over. It's the one coming out of the left side of the plastic tee fitting in the center of the frame and comes straight back towards the camera. On the '95 it went to a small unit on the passenger fender wall which had I think 3 hose nipples and on the '95 there is only one or two nipples there. Which actually leads me to another thing... nobody anywhere mentions the charcoal canister. On the 99 its in the back, 95 under the hood. I just hooked the 95 canister with the bracket back in under there to the two nipples for it but now I guess I have two charcoal canisters on active duty haha.

http://i.imgur.com/3tr5CWv.jpg

Edited July 15, 2015 by Injulen

[Fairtax4me]

Not much point having the second canister. Just loop a section of hose from one metal tube to the other.

 

Can't see enough of whatever vacuum hose that is, but the one with the T there could be either to the purge control valve, or the one that goes to the fuel pressure regulator.

 

The dohickies on the passenger strut tower are the MAP sensor and the pressure sources switching solenoid valve. The valve switches between engine vacuum and atmospheric pressure and helps the ECU determine alititude and engine load based on changes in engine vacuum. There will usually be one hose leading from the engine to the valve, but on some models there are two hoses. If there are two hoses, it's because the valve is also being used to measure evap system pressure, so the ECU can tell if the evap system is leaking. The second hose comes from a T between the canister and the purge valve.

Matching the vacuum hoses when doing a swap is sometimes tricky for people. Just try to follow the diagram on the bottom of the hood (if the hood is original).

 

 

I can't see the vid, can you post a link instead?

[Injulen]

I think I've got the vacuum lines sorted now. An oddity though, this is the only Subaru engine out of six that I have which has two nipples for vacuum lines on the passenger side rear of the intake manifold. All the others have a plug in the lower hole. Not really that relevant but I found it interesting.

Anyway, here is an actual link to the video for you: 

I've swapped in a different IACV since I thought that might be the issue but now my electrical problems seem to be worse.. the battery is draining fast when left hooked up and when I turn the key forward, I have plenty of juice for lights and windows but then when I put the ignition to start the check engine light loses brightness and gets really dim. The rest of the lights stay on fine. I can get a few cranks out of it but then it goes flat. I've tried a different battery and unhooking the alternator and it's still doing it. I can't for the life of me figure out how I could have caused such a bad short in the wiring but that's what it seems like to me. At this point the starter is having issues too, it now won't even crank at all. I guess next step will be to get that swapped for a known good one and see what happens.

Edit: Okay, no matter what I do to put in that youtube link it keeps automatically embedding the video. I can't even paste the link as plain text. Grr... I'm going to put it here without the prefix so you can copy paste it hopefully. youtube.com/watch?v=pgXEFEu6qHw Edited July 24, 2015 by Injulen

[Bushwick]

You stated the donor engine is an EJ22 and went into an EJ25D, right? Why didn't you swap the EJ22 ECM into your car? The EJ25D is DOHC and requires more gas to run, right? Plus idle speed will be different. The random surges are from an EJ25D ECM not knowing how to run an EJ22 engine.

 

 

As far as the ground strapping goes for the starter, go to Auto Zone (or whatever is close) and buy 3 braided ground straps as long as possible near the battery cables area of store. Install all 3 of them to FRESH points with new bolts or clean existing bolts/nuts. If you use existing body holes, grind the paint away so the bolt and nuts have bare metal. I suggest applying a conductive grease over the bare metal AND all over the nuts/bolts to inhibit rust and reapply yearly over top. Don't remove more paint than absolutely needed. If you bought 3 ground straps, do at least 1 of them from engine to body. Can use the alternator's case bolt as one point. Do another one from battery negative to engine. Do the last one from battery negative to body. Your car will NOW start with the key. If needed, buy a generic NEG (-) battery post clamp that has bolting to clamp the copper wire. Use it's top bolts to connect the braided cable's eyelets to the negative post. Add conductive grease here as well. If you find the bolts are too short to allow the eyelets to connect, buy 2 extra bolts from the bolt section at Auto Zone. If need be, open up the package to the neg post clamp and remove a bolt. Thread it into the display they have to determine metric and thread pitch to find a match. Find an 1/8" to 1/4" bolt then thread that into the clamp and make sure it won't be too long or hit the battery. If need be, add washers to lift bolt head a few mm to clear hitting battery case. Add conductive grease to each washer.

 

Good Luck

 

EDIT: QUIT free-revving the engine! Last thing you'd want is to have it lean out or dump too much raw gas into the exhaust. After you swap the ECM, it may run a little rough for 20-50 miles. That'll be normal. If you fouled the O2 sensors and spark plugs, they'll need to burn off the raw gas.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Bushwick

[Injulen]

Thanks for the advice. The grounding issue I've just about taken care of now, the problem electrically I'm having now is a phantom draw. I don't think better grounding will help that, I have to find a short of some kind.

As far as the 2.2 ECU, I found on numerous sources (including this forum) that the 2.5 ECU will run the 2.2 no problem, it's a direct plug and play swap. If I can't figure it out soon I'll try swapping the ECU too but that really shouldn't be the problem.

Oh and the "random surges" aren't the ECU, that's my foot on the throttle. If I just let it do it's own thing it drops the needle below 500 and sputters and dies. I was giving it throttle to keep it from doing that, just for the sake of the video. I haven't repeated this since. I'm still hoping it was the IACV being stuck that caused this and I've now swapped another one on but the phantom draw and lack of working starter is where I'm at now before I know if that swap helped anything.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Injulen

[ccrinc]

OK, let's go for the low hanging fruit here, because you weren't specific about it.

Which "engine" wiring harness did you use, the EJ22 or the EJ25?  (That is, the wiring that sits on the manifold and connects to the main harness via the plugs.)

 

Emily

[Injulen]

You're talking about the intake manifold harness? The intake manifolds are not swappable (different bolt patterns) so I left the harnesses attached to their original ones and I'm currently running the EJ22 intake manifold with the EJ22 wiring.

[Injulen]

Welp.  I think it's finally figured out. I knew it was going to be something stupid simple and it was. I never torqued down the passenger side manifold bolts. Torqued them down, fired right up and idled smooth.

[Fairtax4me]

DOH!!! [/homer]

[Bushwick]

Was the starter ground wire fixed?

 

 

Also, you should still run the EJ22 ecm as the fuel maps will be slightly different between a SOHC 2.2L vs a DOHC 2.5L. It might "run" but won't be getting exact timing and fueling needs the 2.2L was programmed to run at. It might even fail an e-check as a 2.5L needs more fuel than a 2.2L. Long-term damage would be from overly rich condition, which would cause cylinder wash, plugs and O2 fouling, etc.

 

Unless someone can show you that fuel maps and timing advance are identical, it's 100% not worth the risk. 

[Injulen]

I have just done even more research and continually find informArion stating the 2.5 ecu can run a 2.2 perfectly. It's the nature of the o2 sensor feedback loop, it just measures the exhaust gases and adjusts the air to fuel ratio accordingly. There is no reason to think the 2.5 ecu will ever cause harm or even consistent rich conditions. The ecu learns and modifies it's behavior to match.

 

The ground strap is still an issue but I've been diagnosing by using jumper cables from the negative terminal to the starter body. I'm going to tractor supply to get the proper length bolt to put through the bellhousing to attach the starter ground strap tonight. The bolt I thought was ready to shear off ended up coming out just fine.

[Injulen]

I have just done even more research and continually find information stating the 2.5 ecu can run a 2.2 perfectly as well as vice versa. It's the nature of the o2 sensor feedback loop, it just measures the exhaust gases and adjusts the air to fuel ratio accordingly. There is no reason to think the 2.5 ecu will ever cause harm or even consistent rich conditions. The ecu learns and modifies it's behavior to match.

 

The ground strap is still an issue but I've been diagnosing by using jumper cables from the negative terminal to the starter body. I'm going to tractor supply to get the proper length bolt to put through the bellhousing to attach the starter ground strap tonight. The bolt I thought was ready to shear off ended up coming out just fine.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Injulen

[Injulen]

Also my 2.5 ecu matches the cars 5speed, my 2.2 ecu is for an auto and I'm pretty sure there is a difference there which would take more effort to resolve.

 

 

And here is another forum post I was just reading through that's related:

http://imgur.com/aR4JfqI

[Bushwick]

Check the spark plugs in 50 miles, then again at 100 miles as that'll be more accurate than the internet. If they are black and sooty, then it's running rich. Use this image as rough guideline: 

[Injulen]

I have now found a couple threads that mention if anything it would run lean not rich when running a 2.2 with a 2.5 fuel map. But it's within spec and doesn't throw a code. I'll check the plugs for sure, I do that regularly on all my cars.

[Fairtax4me]

On MAF based cars the ECU doesn't really matter because it will change fuel ratio based on airflow through the MAF. Smaller displacement, less air, less fuel.

 

 

MAP cars can have a hard time, especially if you're going up in displacement and/or add cams.

[Cougar]

I had to fix a short on a friends car one time but it was really bad. Lots of sparks would fly when you tried to connect the battery cable to the battery. This was truly a dead short to ground. The trouble was due to an over tightened stud bolt on the starter solenoid battery connection. The head of the bolt inside the solenoid twisted due to the amount of torque applied to it and a corner on the head of the bolt contacted ground. By simply turning the stud bolt back slightly it eliminated the short to ground.

[Injulen]

That's actually funny, I stopped have shorting and arcing problems after I took the positive strap off the starter while finagling that bellhousing bolt. I must have re-installed it in a better manner!

Just got done putting on the new shorter bellhousing bolt which allowed me to utilize the stock starter ground strap location again. Now it starts and runs perfect without jumped cables to aid the grounding! Also it DRIVES perfect! I barely even feel like it's less powerful, I imagined a 30 HP drop would be much more noticeable. No CEL after several miles, OBD-2 passed most of it's self tests sans the ones that take a long cruise like the evap. Idling right at 700 RPM, vacuum is reading a "9.3" but I have no idea what is normal. 

[Fairtax4me]

MAP isn't vacuum. MAP is absolute pressure, which means any amount of pressure above 0 pressure.

 

MAP reading around 9-10" at idle is normal.

Turn off the engine and MAP will rise to somewhere around atmospheric pressure. Subtract your 9.3" from that to get engine vacuum.

[Injulen]

Ah okay, I'm just going by what the gauge in Torque labeled it as:  http://i.imgur.com/HXs0CkU.png

[Bushwick]

Does he need to worry about timing advance at all? Anyone actually read these in real-time to see if timing advance/retardation is an issue?

 

 

Typically DOHC engines make their power later in the rev-range and sacrifice some torque early on. So even though it's less peak hp, tq probably comes on much sooner with the SOHC 2.2L, hence it's hard to tell. If you were racing both back to back near redline from 3rd to 4th, it might be more noticeable. If you can't get definite answers on timing advance, listen for pinging. Might be wise to run 89 or higher to be safe.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Bushwick