Which brand of oil using in 2015 forester

[kenzoil]

_{thanks to all who replied.  If anyone wants to add a comment, please do.}

[idosubaru]

there is little consensus because everyone is right - brand is insignificant.

 

oil rules:  follow the owners manual.

turbo's - always use synthetic.

 

gobs of people run 250,000 miles without issue buying whatever is on sale - they don't claim that approach causes the engine to last 250,000 miles. indeed they don't even talk about oil because they know it doesn't matter and it's simple: follow the owners manual. 

[kenzoil]

because I am new to subaru, which has the inverted oil filter on top of the motor....my question is, are there any particular steps to follow when refilling the oil in the car.  In a conventional hung oil filter, I would always prefill the filter first, then screw it on.  I suppose there is no way around starting the engine with a brand new DRY filter.....

[ferret]

Nothing special here. Let the engine cool if it was running, remove old filter, wipe the the engine mating surface, put a film of fresh oil on the new filter seal, then screw on new filter. No need to prime the filter on the FB engines.

[keith3267]

I have been reading this thread with some interest and I see a lot of resistance to change here.  Up till now, I have used 10w30 in all my vehicles, some synthetic, some conventional.  I typically go for long intervals for my oil changes, 5k for conventional, 7.5k or longer for synthetic and I have never had an oil related engine failure.  I sold my Saturn with 275k miles on it using conventional oil that I changed when the OLM (oil life monitor) light came on, usually 5500 to 6k miles and it still ran like a new car.

 

I currently have a 97 Nissan Pick Up with 195k on it, I've done oil changes at 7500 miles with Castrol Syntec since new and it has yet to burn its first drop of oil.  The 97 Honda Accord that I traded for the new Subaru had 190k on it, 7500 mile oil change intervals with Mobil 1 since new and it only lost some oil when the distributor O ring started leaking.  No oil loss after fixing that.

 

3k intervals are just not necessary for a log engine life, but since you are responsible for your own engine and you will bear the cost of any mistakes or misjudgments, if you feel the shorter interval is needed for you, then by all means do it.  It won't hurt.

 

My new Legacy (2014) calls for 0w20 synthetic oil.  It came with a 2 year, 24k mile free maintenance plan so I have been letting the dealer do the maintenance so far.  They will do one more oil change and rotation, the after that I will be doing it myself until I get to old to do it anymore.  I will stick to the 7500 interval and use 0w20 oil.

 

As for brand, right now there are only two brands that I will consider, Mobil 1 EP and Pennzoil.  When Mobil 1 was first introduced, it was a group IV oil.  Group IV oils are synthesized from natural gas.  The only other synthetic oil on the market at around that time was Amsoil.  Amsoil was an ester based oil then, which is a group III oil that is refined until it has the characteristics of a group IV oil.  It wasn't as good but todays Amsoil is a Group IV or so they say.

 

Castrol came out with Syntec in the late 80's.  When I was working at a cylinder head foundry, I had a talk with the Castrol rep and he told me a little secret.  Castrol was doing all they could about implying that slick 50 would clog up your engine ad that it was not to be used, however in the development of their Syntec oil, they discovered that Mobil  1 with a teflon (PTFE) additive like slick 50 or ay other brand of PTFE additive resulted in the least wear in an engine ad that became the benchmark for Syntec to meet when it came on the market.

 

But Syntec was made from crude oil instead of natural gas, therefore it is a group III oil.  Mobil sued Castrol to stop them from calling their oil synthetic, but they lost the case.  So now there are two types of synthetic oils, group III and group IV.  Group III should not be confused with semi-synthetic oils.  Semi-synthetic oils are a mix of synthetic (group II or group IV) oil and conventional oil at what ever percentage the manufacturer decides to use.  I have not see any published information on this yet.

 

Anyway, I have heard that most Mobil 1 formulations are now Group III except the Mobil 1 EP.  It is still a Group IV.  The new Pennzoil synthetics that say made from natural gas on the label are also Group IV oils.

 

Theoretically there should not be a functional difference between Group III and Group IV oils.  The Castrol rep never told me that Syntec was a group III oil but I have used Syntec in two vehicles with 7500+ intervals and have not seen a difference between it and Mobil 1, but the Mobil 1 that I have been using is the basic Mobil 1 and I don't know when this supposed switch to a Group III oil occurred.  But my plan now is to use a Group IV oil only on the Subaru.

 

In my opinion, oil companies should be forced to identify whether their synthetic oils are group III or group IV.  BTW, do not use a group V synthetic oil in a automotive gas engine.  It is for industrial applications and would damage your cars engine.

 

Now for the push back on the 0w20 weight oils.  0v (zero viscosity) oil at room temperature is still thicker than 30v oil is at engine operating temperature, so the 0w (winter) part is really a non issue.  It will have a thicker film when the engine is cold than 10w30 would at operating temperature.  It will protect just fine.  The issue is whether the 20v is sufficient enough to protect the engine at operating temperature.

 

European spec oils are usually 0w30 or 0w40.  They may be OK when the oil is synthetic, but I did several engine teardowns back in the late 70's/early 80's that had low miles but were sludged up from using 10w40 and 5k to 7500 mile intervals.  After 1975, engine started running so hot that the wide range viscosity oils would breakdown very quickly and create sludge and in some cases, coke.  The wider viscosity ranges were created by adding polymers called viscosity improvers (VI's).  The VI's caused the oil to breakdown at lower temperatures.  The less VI's in the oil, the better it can tolerate higher temperatures.  10w30 oils did not sludge up like the 10w40 oils did.

 

Now I realize that times have changed, the VI's have bee improved so today's 10w40 conventional oil is not the same as the 10w40 I dealt with back then, but I still haven't forgotten and I will not use a conventional 10w40 in anything.  I also avoid any oils that have a spread of more than 20 between the lower number and the higher number.  Synthetic oils have a natural viscosity spread so fewer VI's are used but I am still not comfortable with the 0w30 or 0w40 synthetic oils, but I also accept the fact that I am probably wrong about the new oils spec'ed for those high end European vehicles.

 

Back in the day before multi viscosity oils came in to common use, 20v oil was commonly used.  Now engines usually did not last as long back then ad oil change intervals were usually 2 moths or 1500 miles.  When most people were lucky to get 80k out of an engine, both may father and grandfather would easily go over 100k.  They used straight 20v oil for the first 80 to 90k and 30v oil after that.  In winter in Vermont, they used 10v oil in the winter and 20v in the summer.  When we moved to So Cal, it was 20v year round.

 

So for that reason I have faith that 0w20 will protect my engine.  I do find it interesting that since Subaru warranties the engine for 60k miles, that they specify an interval of 7500 miles, where Toyota who warranties their engines for 36k miles specifies an interval of 10k.  I guess if you are offering a longer warranty, You have to be a little more cautious on your maintenance recommendations.

 

Edit: my "n" key does not always work but I think I caught all my spellig errors due to that.

Edited July 26, 2015 by keith3267

[lstevens76]

I have one good reason for recommending a 3,000 mile oil change interval - People don't bother to check there oil, or do but not often enough.  If an engine is using any oil the consumption will increase the longer between oil changes.  At a 3k change you might be a quart low, but that same usage might be 3qt low (on a 4.2 to 5qt system) at 6k.

 

That is the reason I recommend it.  If you are vigilant about checking your oil than longer intervals are ok.

[kenzoil]

does anyone know for sure if Valvoline 0W-20 is a group III or IV group oil?  and Keith, how do you feel about conversations on the web, of Pennzoil additives settling out of the oil to the bottom of the jug? Heard they tell you to shake the jug up before dumping in the engine, but then what happens with these additives settling out in the engine or oil pan? Comments??

Edited July 27, 2015 by kenzoil

[keith3267]

I don't know about Valvoline synthetic.  Pennzoil used to have an additive they called Z7.  Z7 is some long chemical name I don't I don't remember but its initials were ZDDP.  All brands of oil had it along with some MoS2 (molydimum disulfide).  These have been removed from oil for gasoline engines cause it messed up the cat.  That is what settled out of Pennzoil and all other oils.  I still shake the bottle even though there is no reason too now, old habits.

[kenzoil]

Interesting.  So if you go Pennzoil, are you going with the Platinum or Ultra Platinum?

Edited July 28, 2015 by kenzoil

[bratman2]

Minor correction here on the very long post from Keith. Ester based oils are grpV. Mobil 1 is a blend of grpIII and grpIV. Mobil EP is also but has more grpIV in it. The best Mobil 1 is 0w-40 which meets almost all European specs that I know of, that is in there standard Mobil 1 line. To get a 0W-40 spread requires a high dose of real synthetic. Almost every oil out there is a blend of different specs to arrive at a spec. Most adds are full of marketing bull, especially Amsoil.

 

A 0W-20 would most likely require some amount of grpIV. It is not the same weight as water. But on a cold morning will circulate through the engine much faster to critical pints than a 5w or 10w anything. When cold even 0W is thick for a motor.

 

Last, oils have changed tremendously over the years. With the reduction in some additives. I question if they are as good as they were 10 years ago. But, they are way better than 20 years ago, light years better than 30 and 40 years ago.

 

To answer the op's question, go with what ever 0W-20 oil is readily available and you feel good about. Mobil 1, or Redline (All I use in my motorcycle), Castrol Syntec or whatever. I would most definitely use what the owner manual states. If should be good for 7.5k unless you are toting a heavy load in the mountains or stuck in heavy stop and go city traffic almost daily. Do check your oil!!! That should be something everyone does on a regular routine. I check air pressure and oil levels in all our vehicles monthly. Yes, my wife's 2011 Forester XT uses a little oil. Turbo's are like that. I get all warm and fuzzy adding it back. Just for the record we use Mobil 1 0w-40 in the XT (7.5k), I use Motorcraft 5w-20 in my 06 Ranger (annual around 5k), Mobil 5000 10w-30 high mileage in the 87 Brat (annual around 3.5k), Redline 10w-60 in my Moto Guzzi Norge (annual 5k) and all our power equipment gets 15w-40 Delvac or Rottela annually also.

[keith3267]

I stand corrected on the Esters, however, there are natural organic esters, vegetable oil being the most common.  But that is a field too big for a forum like this.  We used ester based oils in some of the transformers that we made at the company I worked for before retiring.  Much safer than the old PCB oils (we never used those).

 

I absolutely agree with bratman 2 on the marketing hype, especially about Amsoil, but they do have a lot of believers.  In the early days of Amsoil, I had seen a couple of engines at the on base auto hobby shop being torn down after 60k miles that were totally worn out.  They had more wear than I had ever see before.  The owners used Amsoil i them, but the owners had bought into the belief that the oil was a "permanent oil".  I don't know if that was Amsoil's claim or just claims made by some of their salesmen.  To be fair to Amsoil, we all know what will happen to an engine if the oil isn't changed for 60k miles, especially back in the 70's.

 

There is some controversy as to whether oil has lost its ability to protect the engine when they removed most of the zinc/phosphate (ZDDP) and MoS2 from oils.  This started when some owners of old vehicles, particularly British cars and motorcycles had their engines rebuilt and suffered engine failure shortly after, mostly camshaft lobe wear, but also crankshaft ad camshaft journals too.

 

The mechanics would blame the new (SL and newer) oils for the excessive wear because of the loss of the zinc and moly.  What these mechanics didn't understand about these older engines was the manufacturing process used.  Today, engines use a high strength steel and harder iron alloys and are machined with carbide or diamond tipped cutting tools.  

 

These super hard tools were not available back in the old days so parts like cams, cranks and lifters were made from a milder steel and machined with stones.  Then they were case hardened (tempered).  Young rebuilders would re-machine these parts, but did not know that they needed to be tempered and as a result, they would fail shortly after.  It was easy to blame the oil for this and the owners bought the story.

 

The moral is, if you have an old car, you need a gray haired mechanic.

 

Edit:  my "n" key does not always work so if you see a word with the n missing, but it still spells another valid word, that is why.

Edited July 28, 2015 by keith3267

[keith3267]

kenzoil, not sure what oil I will use yet, its real hard to find useful information, especially from the oil companies themselves.  I will say this, it is FAR more important to change your oil per the recommended maintenance schedule in the owners manual than which brand you use.

 

As for your filter question, the filters are so small these days, they fill up very quickly.  Since the engines are so well sealed that now, the primary source of contamination of oil is the oil itself, that is the oil breaking down, and since synthetic oil (all modern oils for that matter) is more resistant to breaking down, the oil filter just doesn't have to be very big anymore.

[bratman2]

The company I work for installed a huge kiln a decade or so ago. The kiln puts out so much heat, even though it is brick lined, that you cannot use grease in the bearings. They have installed insulated lines and pump Mobil Delvac ESP 5w-40 oil that recirculates to a holding tank. The engineer that designed the oiling system said he tried many oils in bench testing the design. The Delvac synthetic held up the best of any that was readily available. Key word readily available.

[kenzoil]

My head is spinning after reading everything, but I think I will go with Pennzoil Platinum (not the ultra) 0W-20.  It is a group IV oil, and seems to have plenty of the additives to help lessen wear, etc for the new engines. Thanks to everyone for all the imput.