davekra Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 So, I've been reading a lot of posts about torque bind. My sons '05 Forester 2.5xs exhibits the problem and I'd like to fix it. The posts say if you have bind but install the FWD fuse and it goes away, the solenoid is working...but if the solenoid is working and you have bind with the fuse removed doesn't that mean the clutch engages and that it may be a control issue? The sensors or TCM may not be telling the solenoid to do what it should. How does one determine if the control stuff to the solenoid is the cause? The fluid hadn't been changed in a while and was quite dark. We did a drain/fill three times and it looks better but the binding is still there. With the dark fluid, could that be the clutch? I'm thinking the replacement solenoid and clutch pack would be a good idea regardless but I see two different solenoid locations. How can I tell what transmission I have. My son is away right now and I'd like to have the parts for when he gets back. Can the transmission version be determined by the VIN number? JF1SG65615H728655 According to http://www.rostratransmission.com/subaru-transfer-clutch-solenoid-failure-replacement.php the solenoid is in the main valve body for a 4EAT Phase 2 Version 2 transmission. This solenoid location is different from every post I've found from someone doing the job themselves. They were unable to help on determining my transmission version. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, davidk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 you should explicitly state from the beginning what you're asking about - automatic transmission. that can easily be inferred and implied, but plenty of people get confused on this topic and dont' understand the MT and AT differences. install FWD fuse - does the binding get better? "control issues" - what do you mean exactly? yes there are other possibilities but the Solenoid and clutches are so common it doesn't make any sense to guess on outliers. use opposed forces or one of the subaru online parts vendor has excellent exploded view diagrams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) if you have read about the issue, i assume the car has all the same tires, and there has been no trans or diff swaps, right? Edited October 5, 2015 by 1 Lucky Texan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekra Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 Sorry, yes it's an automatic 4EAT. The tires are all the same size and the trans and diffs are all original to the car. We've been the only owner. With the fuse installed the problem goes away. So, to me, that tells me the solenoid is turning on and off engaging and disengaging the clutch. The solenoid is modulated or not just on/off, correct? So if the fuse turns it on and off and the clutch engages (as is evident by the binding) doesn't that mean its not being modulated? So wouldn't that mean it's not getting the correct signal on how much to engage the clutch? And if that's the case wouldn't it be sensor or TCM related? I've tested the resistor that's on the passenger side that's involved in regulating the solenoid and it checks as good , but I'm not sure what other electrical tests are involved with this system. I've also just placed an order for the clutch plates and gaskets. It looks like a fairly straight forward job to replace them and based on the condition of the fluid something is wearing in there. My son couldn't tell me how long the binding has been happening but seemed to indicate it's been quite a while. (he's not good at 'listening' to cars yet as they have been free to him and repairs are usually handled by mom-n-dad) The transfer clutch solenoid also would seem to be in the main valve body and not in with the clutch according to one of the parts suppliers. In all the posts I've read everyone has the solenoid in with the clutch which was causing me some concern about getting the correct part. I don't want to do this job more than once so I'd really like to identify where the solenoid is before ordering the part. Thanks again, davidk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 any other symptoms? noises? any work done or wrecks before this began? any pending codes stored by the ECU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) The binding going away with the fuse could mean everything is normal except that the plates are gripping each other more than normal, due to previous mis-match tires or something. There is no feed back in the system, if the clutches 'stick' to each other 'better' than normal, it'll bind. Could also be plates are fine but clutch basket is grooved. We have an '05 forester X auto, the AWD is pretty tight on it, it fights parking lot turns just a little bit, has been that way since 35k miles or so, hasn't gotten worse now with about 130k. Edited October 5, 2015 by CNY_Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekra Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 No other noises other than some tire scrubbing when slow in a tight circle. No clunks or bumps from anything else that I can tell. No accidents or jarring of the drive train that I know of. No flashing lights or codes that I can read. I bought a cable and used freessm to look at the ECU and TCU. There were no error codes. We're at a little over 140k. It was my wifes car before giving it to number one son. Like I said, with the look of the oil something is wearing in there. Since it shifts all the other gears fine and there isn't any slipping... I'm really hoping it's the transfer clutch. I ordered the parts and stopped at the dealer to confirm the location of the solenoid. It is in the main valve body and that company linked in my first post sells a replacement for $114. The dealer only sells the entire valve body for over $800. The clutch basket could be grooved. Could it be called Shaft Complete - Read Drive # 31323aa180 . Looks to be about $207. Is that the only thing that could be damaged from a sticking clutch? That would be one side of the clutch but wouldn't there be a second part that engages the clutch teeth? Also, I've read the shaft simply is tapped out of the housing. No bearings to press or other things things that would make it difficult for a backyard mechanic? I won't be getting to the repair till the 16th but I'm ordering everything so it will be here when we tear into it. Thank so much guys. davidk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 If it's just a little scuffing and stiff-feeling on only almost full-lock turns I would just leave it. That's a little tighter than normal but not 'binding'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekra Posted October 7, 2015 Author Share Posted October 7, 2015 Maybe, but it really feels like the brakes are applied when turning tight going forward or reverse...that can't be good. The parts ordered so far total up to $280 not including fluids. Not too bad. That's the clutch plates, gaskets and solenoid. As long as nothing else is wrong it's a decent cost for the age of car. He'd like to get a different car in a year or two so I don't want to put in too much. We'll see when we open it up. Thanks davidk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekra Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) So, I got the clutch and solenoid replaced. No too bad of a job. Everything came apart easy enough and I didn't have any leftover parts.... But the problem is still there. Not any worse but not any better. So, what sensors are involved in modulating the solenoid? Where can I find a diagnostic manual for the electrical part of this system? Thanks, davidk Oh, by the way, SubaruPartsForYou.com is where I got the clutch and gaskets. They charged me for but didn't send the exhaust manifold gaskets. I contacted them and they promised they would ship them in time for my weekend repair. They didn't. Now they don't seem to be responding to emails. Edited October 19, 2015 by davekra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Did you check the output drum for grooves worn in the notches where the clutch plates engage? If there are grooves, the clutch plates will drag because they get jammed in the drum. If they aren't deep you can file then down and re-use the drums. Otherwise the drums need to be replaced. SP4Y has a good reputation among the Subaru community. Hope they get their stuff straightened out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 There is a preload washer/shim (or several) that goes onto the back of the clutch to set preload on the 4EATs up to '04, if this trans has that setup also it could be the thickness is too great. (The shimming is used so with no pressure the clutch doesn't drag, but not a lot of movement and it's locked up) Here's a question or a few- Does it get worse in 1, 2, R? If you park but leave the shifter in N and shut off the gas, does the car lurch or act like some pent-up stress was suddenly released? I'll reiterate our '05 forester has the tightness you describe, has been that way for about 100,000 miles now (since we bought it used), if it just feels a little tight but doesn't lurch when making tight circles and there's no other ill effects, I would call it in the normal range. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekra Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) There was some evidence of wear on the drums but not too bad and only in a few spots. Certainly not as bad as some of the pictures I've seen. As far as getting worse in 1 or 2, I didn't try that. In reverse it does seem worse or somewhat different than when going forward. It's as if someone is applying the brakes. I think there was a release of stress when shifting from f-r and r-f. I'll need to test that again when he gets back from Philly next weekend. This is our second of four Subaru. We've had a '99, this '05, my '11 and the wifes '14 and none of them exhibit this level of drag when cornering. I would agree there could be more than in a 2wd car but we're very familiar with Subaru and this is definitely not normal. Thanks, davidk p.s. I was going to add a relay and switch that would turn AWD on and off so he could drive it without further damage but he didn't have time on Sunday to do that. If we can't find the cause at lease he'd be able to have AWD when it's slippery and FWD when it's not. Edited October 19, 2015 by davekra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 In reverse it can seem worse too since you can get a larger front/rear turning circle mismatch, or at least it's more likely you'll turn tighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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