1997 Grand Wagon Head Gasket and Severe Overheating

[Finlayg]

Hi everyone, New member but long time lurker (I've used several of the repair guides on this site). Joined up finally as I really need some advice from people who know what they're talking about.

 

So last Sunday my normally reliable Grand Wagon failed spectacularly. I was on a cross island trip (New Zealand) cruising at 100kph. I noticed a slight film/smoke in my rear view mirror but thought nothing of it as my car had the cat removed 2 years ago and normally does this a little bit. I'd only been driving for about 40 minutes. Anyway I pulled into the next town to get petrol and as I slowed down the engine cut out and clouds of steam billowed put of the hood. This is when I noticed the temp gauge was maxed. The radiator was boiling and overflowing and a horrible smell was coming from the car.

 

The local town's mechanic let it cool down and eventually it started back up. Didn't sound too bad tbh. He ran diagnostics and found an error in one of the cylinders. Head gasket is gone. Both him and I are worried I might have cracked /warped the head and caused any other number of problems as a result of how high the temp got.

 

Thinking of doing the head gasket myself (something I've never done) but that might not be the only issue and this could start to get expensive for a pretty old car that is probably only worth 2500 NZD. It also needs new tyres and play in the R/H fixed. What you guys reckon? Is she worth the effort?

[nipper]

You cant just judge a car by its book value, but the value to you.

 

What year is his, and how many KM are on it?

[Finlayg]

1997 and 176,000km. It's been a good car but I'm not particularly attached to it. If only it was a manual haha

[nipper]

Is this a straight 6? I'm guessing an aluminum head. I would do a sry and wet compression test first to see what shape the engine is in to begin with. All those years of driving upside down may have hurt it

[Rooster2]

Does your car have the 2.2 or  2.5 motor?? Do you have any idea of how long you may have driven with temp gauge maxed out HOT? The longer driven HOT, the greater the damange potential. If you don't know for how long, then assume the worse. The result as you know is warped heads, and also potentially bad connecting rods, because of poor oil lubrication. It has been reported on the forum that in this situation, a connecting rod has broken wiithin just a few thousand KWs to really destroy the motor.

 

The basic problem is when a Subaru motor out of the 1990's blows a head gasket, it permits exhaust gas to enter the cooling system, resulting in over heating. Both my 98 and 99 blew their head gaskets on a 2.5 motor. That is the weakness of head gaskets on the 2.5 motors.

 

I guess it really comes down to how much are you willing to spend to put this car back on the road again??

[nipper]

My mistake, saw grand wagon and thought Jeep. Still stick by the compression test though

[ccrinc]

FWIW, the Grand Wagon is what we in the USA call an Outback.  How's that for irony?

 

ANY Subaru engine which is overheated that badly has, at the least, badly blown head gaskets and will definitely need the heads resurfaced.  Now, the question is, do you have oil and coolant mixing?  Even if they aren't (yet), with that many miles, I believe it's only a short matter of time before your rod bearings go too.  At this point, do you see metal flakes in the oil? 

 

Emily

[lmdew]

Drop in a good old 95 2.2 and drive it for another 10 years.

[nipper]

Thanks Emily, I did not know that.

[ccrinc]

Drop in a good old 95 2.2 and drive it for another 10 years.

The EJ22 as we know it was never sold outside of N. America, or at least very rarely.  At this point, I'm wondering which engine is in it.  My guess is a N/A EJ20 SOHC which is pretty much as reliable as our EJ22.  But, it could be any of several other models. 

 

We'll need to wait on the OP to get more details.

[Finlayg]

It's a N/A EJ25 motor. EJ22s are very uncommon in NZ. EJ25s or EJ20s are generally all we have. Most Subaru's in the country from that era are 2.5l

 

To answer someone's earlier question about how long I drove it at max temp. I honestly don't know. The day that it died I had only been driving 40 minutes total. The previous day I had done a 500km drive and hadn't noticed any smoke or issues whatsoever. Most of that was at night though so I couldn't really tell. Is it possible for a car to travel at high speeds with a blown head gasket? If not then I doubt the head gasket blew until the day it stopped running. My guess is that it failed pretty soon before it stopped working altogether.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Finlayg

[idosubaru]

the only thing i can think of that may quantify this is to call a UOA company and ask them if particulates might show that indicate the lower end bearings were compromised. 

 

otherwise it's a roll of the dice, just guessing how long it was run hot.   if it was pegged for 5 minutes, that's atrocious for an ICE.   if it happened 5 seconds before, no big deal. 

[Rooster2]

Is it possible for a car to travel at high speeds with a blown head gasket?

 

The answer to that question is YES. My wife did exactly that with the 2.5 in her Subaru. She drove on the freeway for so long at absolutely HOTwith a blown head gasket, that the radiator melted down somewhere to leak out all the coolant. Still having absolutely "cooking" the motor, it would start and run, and could be driven around for a mile or two, before the temp gauge would move to HOT. At a repair shop, my mechanic told me that the heads were warped, and fluids were leaking elsewhere from the engine block. There was no doubt the engine was trashed. As Imdew posted, here in the USA, it is common to replace the 2.5 motor with a 2.2 motor from a wrecking yard. That is exactly what I did with good results, plus installing a new radiator. However, as you have said, the 2.2 motor is uncommon in NZ, so that option is unrealistic for you.

 

From your posts, I rather gather that you drove for quite a while with the motor over heating, so the over all condition of the motor is so uncertain, and potentially unreliable, if only the heads were replaced. If it were me, I would either replace the motor, sell the car as a "parts car," or retire the car to a wrecking yard.

[Finlayg]

Allright cheers for the advice. Sounds like the consensus is that it is risky trying to fix the engine as it is probably buggered and my 2 options are either scrap it or buy a second hand engine. Not really what I wanted to hear but oh well haha.

 

I'll only get about 300 NZD for the wreck. I guess parting it out is an option but I can't really be bothered.

 

So that leaves me with getting another engine. There aren't any EJ22s in the country according to all the wreckers I called. How bad an option is an EJ20? I can get a sub 200,000km EJ25 for 450-600NZD depending on mileage. My main concern is that a similar mileage EJ25 is just going to have the same problem. How likely is it to happen to my replacement engine? If I did the head gasket on a new engine as a precaution it would probably cost another $500 pushing me to probably at least $1500 for total repairs. I need new tires and brake pads soon so that'll take me to pretty much the value of the car. That's probably not worth it.

 

If I got a second hand EJ25 from a wrecker what other parts would you recommend?Obviously I need to do an oil change and new filter. My water pump probably needs replacing too. Anything else?

 

My other batshit crazy idea is to chuck in a twin turbo EJ20 with manual transmission just for the laughs haha

[idosubaru]

If you've got time and don't mind some risk of engine issues down the road - then doing the headgaskets now can be a good fit.

you can check timing covers and knock sensors for signs of melting - that would indicate severe overheating.

 

I installed an EJ18 in place of an EJ25 and I live in the mountains where there's steep grades.  just rev it, mine has 100,000 miles since swapping it. 

1,000 pounds in passenger sand using 16" rims slowed it down significantly on the steep grades.

[Rooster2]

If I got a second hand EJ25 from a wrecker what other parts would you
recommend?Obviously I need to do an oil change and new filter. My water
pump probably needs replacing too. Anything else?

 

Well if you decide on an EJ25 from a wrecker, it will need to be from a 1996-1999. Hopefully find one from a car that has been in an accident. That at least gives you comfort that the engine was running at the time the car became a wrecker. All EJ25s from that time era have the weakness with head gaskets going bad. Subru replacement head gaskets were upgraded over the years, so new head gaskets reduce the weakness to some degree. It is always a good idea to replace the timing belt, idlers, pulleys, water pump, and oil seals before installing the engine. When completed, the engine should be good for 160K km. This all adds up to a lot of work, when you know the car's value is 2500 NZD. At some point, you have to decide if you want to take the time and money to repair your car, or take the same amount of money and apply it towards buying a replacement car.

[ccrinc]

My research indicates (no guarantee here) that you should be able to swap in a N/A EJ20 much like we swap in EJ22 engines here in the USA. 

 

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f66/jdm-sohc-ej20-na-swap-alternative-usdm-ej25-304449/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_EJ_engine

 

Emily

[Fairtax4me]

Overheating to the point the engine shuts off is pretty much writing the death certificate.

 

What kind of shape is the rest of the car in? If its clean(little or no rust), suspension, brakes, exhaust system all in decent shape, pop a used engine in it.

Replace all the timing parts, and the oil seals on the front of the engine. Reseal the separator plate and put some valve over gaskets on it and it should be good to go.