tick, tap or knock

[shauny-s]

how do, im new to sooby world and i love it, the car itself is ace apart from a new noise thats just come about, i recently did an oil change as the oil was black as.... im unsure what oil was used so i decided to go with fuji industries recommendations, afetr putting in 5w/30 it tapped like mad so i drained and filled with 5w/40, just as bad so after speaking with a well known local mod shop he said go back to 3 qts of 5w/30 and 1 qts lucas oil, now the tap is unbearable, hoping you peeps could help me, as to what oil to use, what additives and so on.

 

ive posted a vid on youtube for you to listen to (

)

 

just before 13 seconds you hear the tick stop to the normal boxer tick and then an increasing second tick, i know it sounds a bit vhriuvhr but i cant explain it really apart from an increasing tick....STOP..... increasing tick.....STOP.............

 

THANKS IN ADVANCE AND MUCH APPRECIATED 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Olnick]

Tell us what car you have--model, year, engine, tranny, mileage.  How long have you had it?  Know anything about its history?

[shauny-s]

its a 1996 impreza 2.0 ltr sport 4wd, 154.000 milews and ive had it coming up to 2 months, ive got service history from day 1 but most reciepts just say how much was paid and not what work was done. sorry new to all this

[Bushwick]

Why you are running 5 w? I run 10 30 synthetic in my ej22 and it's quiet. Although, it had rather loud lifters when I got it so those were yanked and all but 2 I think would NOT hold a decent pump even after cleaning in fresh oil and bleeding by hand. Found another ej22 (think it was a 96') with about 160k miles and cleaned and bled those, then installed. 2 years later and it's still quiet. Hell, it's quieter than most engines guys rebuild or hop up and do transplants with.

 

So "boxer tick" isn't normal. That ticking is noisy lifters and if the car is driven normally and it occurs constantly, they need attention as they shouldn't do that on a healthy engine.

 

 

Anyways, I think your noise is actually the timing belt tensioner. It's hydraulic like the lifters. You can pull the timing cover and watch it move. If it's slamming back and forth violently, it's bad. There are videos of this online so can confirm off that. Also, the sound doesn't increase with revs, right?

[Olnick]

Here's a trick you might consider for lifter tick:  Add a small bottle of "MMO" (Marvel Mystery Oil--it's an old fashioned automotive product for cleaning restricted oil passages) to your crankcase.  Then just do your normal driving for 100 miles or so.  If the tick goes away, do an oil change.  I use 10W30 in my '95 Legacy Wagon, 2.2L.

 

And thanks for including the video--that was an excellent idea.

 

BTW, are you writing from Lancashire in the UK?  If so, I urge you to add that to your user ID.  It helps people better understand your car--since most of us are in the US.

 

At any rate, please continue to ask questions . . . we'd like to be able to help you!  And good luck.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Olnick

[shauny-s]

Oops forgot to mention that the sound only comes when the engine is at operating temp

[shauny-s]

Bushik, ive tried 10w/30 and it had loud (piston slap) on start and i
thought that rather than do any damage lower the vis according to soobys
manual, all this has come about since doing my first oil change from an
unknown viscosity that previous owner used to the 5w/30 and so on as
explained at first message, ive contacted the last owner and i cant get
anything from him other than use millers oil with wynns oil treatment ,
how easy is it to fix the tappets and what experiance would you need
etc, as for the timing tensioner that was my second thought and was
gonna whip the covers off this weekend and have look, if its that then
might aswell do a belt change too the noise stays the same with revs
but at an increased rate if you get me? the backbox drowns out any sound
past 2nd gear, ill get another video up tomorow with the tap at
differant rev ranges,

[shauny-s]

olnick, a few people have mentioned MMO but then again theres differant opinions on wether to use it or not from reading through the net, have you had any experiance with MMO and it working in such an old high milage car?

 

i appreciate all the help i will be getting from the fellow members on this site as i see its a like a tight community and people are here to help or try to help

 

yup im from the UK and ill change that now thanks for the heads up on that,

 

I love the car and ive been after one for years and now ive got one it seems to be a duff one

[shauny-s]

Thanks for all the help and advice in advance appreciate it, really do

[Olnick]

Yes, shauny, I have used MMO.  My son's high mileage '92 Legacy (EJ22) developed the tick, probably because he hadn't changed the oil when needed!  The MMO worked like a charm and the car remained quiet to the end.

 

If you want to take a look at the TB tensioner you can remove just the left (the car's left!) portion of the TB cover and peer in with a flashlight.

 

And if you decide to do a TB change we strongly recommend new idlers, cam & crank seals, an oil pump re-seal, even a new water pump, thermostat and hoses.  Over here we can get kits with all of that (except for t-stat & hoses) for $130 to $150.

 

Good luck--keep us informed--and ask questions!

[shauny-s]

thats brill ill keep that in mind, for a couple of quid its worth a try maybe. is MMO along the same lines as lucas stabilizer oil?

 

its as easy as that then to see if if its the tensioner then?!

 

and from looking at timing belt belt kits, the ones ive seen are ranging between £140 -  £200+  and in you $150 does that come with water pump too?

 

Thanks

[Olnick]

1)  I'm not a big fan of adding anything to oil so I have no idea of how the Lucas product works.  However after reading about MMO I took a chance.  It must be a pretty good solvent because it worked!  But as soon as it had done its job I drained it and filled the crankcase with clean, sweet, synthetic 10W30!

 

2)  With the left end of the plastic TB cover removed and the engine idling you should be able to see if the belt and the tensioner idler are bouncing around abnormally.  Just be careful to keep your hair and fingers clear of the belt!  Maybe with an automotive stethoscope or a long screwdriver (handle pressed against your ear) you might even be able to listen for a problem from outside the TB cover.

 

3)  Wouldn't you know it--the kit I bought for $130+ is now $160!  It included a quality Aisin water pump and the proper metal gasket.  You can check it out online--Mizumo Auto on Ebay (for some reason I couldn't post a link here.)   They can even ship to UK for $80.  $160 + $80 = $240 = 156 pounds!

[Fairtax4me]

Sounds like lifter noise based on the description. A half quart of MMO should clear that up.

If it doesn't, the rocker shaft assemblies will need to be removed and cleaned, and the lifters cleaned and bled. Its a weekend job for a DIY mechanic, only because the parts are small and takes several minutes to clean each of the 16 lifters.

[Bushwick]

I'm not a fan of adding anything to the oil either. Might as well be pouring honey into the oil or even sawdust....

 

 

Anyways, the "correct" way to manage the lifters is to remove the valve covers, then unbolt the rocker shaft assembly. Takes about 5-10 minutes per side even having never done them before. The rockers are thankfully mounted to a central shaft so they come out as a whole.

 

From there, I suggest getting a bottle of synthetic engine oil and pouring some into the cap.

 

Remove a lifter and inspect if it's collapsed or not. Ideally, it should be rock solid. When I did mine, all but 2 were either half-way pumped or collapsed. Grab the the top with your fingers and pull on it if it's collapsed. Then insert it into the cap of oil proceed to pump and bleed it carefully using the pick to press the ball valve down. Every time you pump it during the bleeding, you'll see a black gunk swirl out which is varnish and very old oil. Keep doing this until FRESH oil exits and no signs of black gunk. Then prime it until it's solid. I suggest getting a plastic cup, or an old plastic bottle and pouring a couple ounces of fresh oil into that, then dropping each cleaned and bled lifter into there until it's ready to go back into the engine. Takes about an hour to do all 16 lifters. Also, every time you start a new lifter, make SURE you are dumping the old oil from the cap and only using fresh oil to prevent that gunk from getting pulled into another lifter. ONE lifter alone can take the couple tablespoons of oil in the cap and completely turn it black (that MMO junk won't get rid of this so just do it right) so fresh cap full is a must. Even if the lifters are pumped up already, bleed and clean the gunk out. That gunk is what causing them to eventually fail.

 

If any of the lifters won't/can't hold a solid pump, you'll need to replace it. Mine were so bad I even tried letting some degreaser get pulled in as a last resort then priming the hell out of them with fresh oil and they just would not hold solid.

 

I also suggest spraying some degreaser into EACH hole the lifter resides in on the rocker making sure it's coming out the oil feed hole as those can get restricted with varnish and even sludge if oil changes were neglected, then wiping off excess or use a fast evaporator like starting fluid. Once dry, pour about a cap full of oil into the hole then reinsert the lifter and PUSH. It'll force oil out the feed hole in the rocker. I did that several times just to make sure it was cleaning out the hole and to verify proper flow through that hole. This will also help avoid any metal on metal with the lifter.

 

That "piston slap" you heard with 10 30 was probably the tensioner as mine is doing that too when cold sometimes then goes away once oil has warmed (it doesn't increase with engine revs and stays constant). If the sound only occurs at idle and doesn't increase with engine revs like a piston knock does, it isn't the piston slapping. Also, actual piston knock doesn't go away. 5 30 oil starts out thinner when cold than 10 30 does. On higher mileage engines with worn tolerances, you'll likely have blow-by and increased oil consumption. Do NOT run a 40 in cold temps as that's harder on the engine and more for race engines or really hot temps. 5w is more of a cold weather-easier start oil.

 

Investigate the tensioner and you'll probably find it's bad. If you still get noise, look at the lifters, though it sounded like one loud knocking sound on my home stereo. Usually the lifters are more of a ticking in unison sound. If you actually pull them, you'll also be able to see if any are actually collapsed. Very easy to do.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Bushwick

[Bushwick]

Did you figure it out? Could always help the next guy if he/she has the same issue

[shauny-s]

hi sorry for the reply delay, been mega busy!! as ive took something for all the advice given ive tried some wynns lifter treatment (being impatiant because cant get MMO quick enough lol) and it been in the car now for near 100 miles, the ticking has quetened down significantly but still there, ive not had a cyhance to get my head in the engine bay to listen and look for sounds the past week, just to keep it short ill drive it another few miles and listen for any change then do an oil change with millers 10w/40, i spoke to a couple of lads who own a subaru garage in fleetwood and they said messing with the tappets i,e stripping down and cleaning would be a big effort and theres no point, they reccomeneded the millers oil with a decent filter (whats a decent filter?)

 

thanks again

[shauny-s]

another thing with this problem, or i think its a problem is that the car feels quite sluggish, like its lacking power of somethings clogged up somewhere, uinsure if realted but maybe it is in fact linked?