99 Legacy Outback ej25 Issues

[ratch]

So, i have several things wrong with my 250k Legacy Outback. but first a rundown, bought this august of 2014 had a little shy of 230k miles on it. Its a 2.5L Manual Trans. Previous owner was in a fender bender. has a solid black front passenger fender and the stock intake was replaced with an after market dome thingy. the suspension is really tight and responsive as well its got great alignment. straightest running car i ever owned.

 

Primary concerns were i was getting error codes, if he read it correctly, miss fire on 3 & 4. I replaced Ignition coil, Spark Plugs, Spark Plug Wires, Crank sensor, the guy i bought it from said he had recently replaced the cam sensor. Well it still gave me the miss fire codes. I also found that it was leaking oil, front seal and somewhere else. I checked the Pan Gasket and found the bolts where not tight really at all, so i tightened them down a little. still leaking. 

 

I've been racking my brain over it but didn't really have the money or time to look into it, Full time student. well i'm out of school and a couple weeks ago it stopped, I went to accelerate after stopping at a sign, and i killed it. this is my first manual i've owned, still a novice. well i fired it up and started off, well it wasn't running right. spitting and sputtering and no power. been here, done that. figured it was blown gasket. there is no oil in my antifreeze and vice versa. I'm off for a couple days from work so i figured i would look into it. gotta pick up a Compression tester and i'm going to check the timing. both said things will tell me where to look next. Research i found could have jumped time.

 

however after a little more i believe passenger side head gasket may be needing replaced. in a video i found the mechanic explained that bad gaskets leak coolant on the drivers side and oil on the passenger side of Subaru EJ25 engines. the oil leak is primarily Passenger side from what i can tell. 

 

Minor issues, Wiper blades fly off my windshield when i exceed 45mph, 40 with the right wind.  I had to remove my Passenger Arm after the wiper blade flew off while i was doing 75 down the highway. Now 65+ i get a bad vibration in my steering wheel. could be tires, as stated above this has great alignment and good suspension. 

 

currently i need it running again. However hopefully when my income gets a little more loose i can look at rebuilding the engine. or buying a rebuilt to swap in.

[ratch]

Had a brain fart. could have sworn i had a SOHC, went out to check the PVC Valve and was looking and went "Oh sh!t, i have a DOHC not a SOHC" which changes a lot of the labor involved with replacing the gaskets.

[wtdash]

Hi and Welcome to the USMB.

 

As you found out, '99 was the last year of the DOHC EJ25D in the Legacy Outback / GT. It has an INTERNAL leaking HG -not the EXTERNAL that you refer to in your 1st post above, which started w/the SOHC EJ251/3.

 

But if you're not getting any bubbles in the overflow tank, overheating, or water <>oil mixing, then it's likely something else.

 

The Compression test will tell you a little about the health of the engine, but a LeaK Down will tell a lot more - mainly the health of the valves...and my $$ is on a burn valve. I bet the valves have not been adjusted?

 

I don't know what your issue is w/the wiper blades....no offense, but are you sure you're putting them on correctly?

 

And 55-65 seems to be the common speed where wheel balancing issues seem to appear. ....assuming you're wheels are not full of mud or snow?

 

GL,

TD

Edited December 9, 2015 by wtdash

[lmdew]

If you need a replacement engine go with a 95 2.2 with ERG.  Plug and Play for the most part.

[ratch]

Hi and Welcome to the USMB.

 

As you found out, '99 was the last year of the DOHC EJ25D in the Legacy Outback / GT. It has an INTERNAL leaking HG -not the EXTERNAL that you refer to in your 1st post above, which started w/the SOHC EJ251/3.

 

But if you're not getting any bubbles in the overflow tank, overheating, or water <>oil mixing, then it's likely something else.

 

The Compression test will tell you a little about the health of the engine, but a LeaK Down will tell a lot more - mainly the health of the valves...and my $$ is on a burn valve. I bet the valves have not been adjusted?

 

I don't know what your issue is w/the wiper blades....no offense, but are you sure you're putting them on correctly?

 

And 55-65 seems to be the common speed where wheel balancing issues seem to appear. ....assuming you're wheels are not full of mud or snow?

 

GL,

TD

 

The wipers were the same ones from the previous owner. I checked them but it's possible it was a broken clip. the real issue is that the whole arm will leave the windshield when they are running. i'm not sure if i should replace the assembly or the motor or both. going to check Nappa/Autozone/O'Reiley's and see if they sell them or if i need to get through the dealer.

 

I'm pretty sure the Wobbling is wheel related. I just wanted to make sure something else couldn't cause it as well given the state of the car. 

 

Is there a good guide on how to do a leak down? My brother has a friend that a mechanic i may also consult him as well. what would the cost or difficulty be for burnt valves? i'm very limited on my budget. 

 

@Imdew: I have seen this recommended in more than one area, can you explain the benefits of the 95 2.2 vs my 2.5? you also say Plug and Play for the most part, whats the little bit extra that would need done? I have replaced engines before and researched heavily on motor swaps (93 tracer SOHC to a 93 Mazda Pro DOHC), so i know that there is some work needed along with modifications on major engine swaps. lastly, ERG? I have a lose idea what this may be but elaboration would be welcomed.

 

Thank you both for input, I'm picking up the compression tester after work today and my little brother may be helping me with checking the timing tomorrow. may also do the compression tomorrow as well. I may just buy the compression tester instead of renting. its $30+Tax to buy and $43~ w/ tax to rent. granted i get the $43~ back but regardless it looks like i have to save for a bit for the repairs so i may just buy the tool to have for the future.

[wtdash]

Hi,

here's a wiper arm link: http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/66-problems-maintenance/16812-wiper-arm-not-moving-2002-outback.html

 

But there's also a plastic piece that connects the wiper motor to the arms that actuate the wipers...can't recall their name, but you can buy them cheaply @ most auto parts stores. I've had to do it on a couple of the '90s Subies....found link: http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f88/diy-wiper-bushing-fix-how-stop-those-clunking-slapping-wipers-111525/

 

The '95 is only year that has EGR (automatic transmission ONLY)  - so it has the port in the cylinder head, AND is OBDII - so the harness/electronics are the same, AND has a DUAL -port head and exhaust - just like the 2.5, for the '96-'99 Legacy's w/the 2.5 (GT, OB, LSi). The '96-'98 2.2 can also be used, but more work.

 

The little things are the vacuum lines, which are explained on here/online somewhere (I've done one, but my 'RAM' is full today).

 

The burnt valve can be repaired by a shop (cost varies a LOT, since shops all charge differently) but the heads have to come off and it's easier (IMHO) to pull the engine, and you should plan on the whole reseal routine if the engine comes out......and even if you do it yourself, it's not going to be cheap. Hopefully I'm WRONG about the burnt valve...but be prepared.

 

TD

Edited December 9, 2015 by wtdash

[ratch]

 ONLY

Hi,

here's a wiper arm link: http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/66-problems-maintenance/16812-wiper-arm-not-moving-2002-outback.html

 

But there's also a plastic piece that connects the wiper motor to the arms that actuate the wipers...can't recall their name, but you can buy them cheaply @ most auto parts stores. I've had to do it on a couple of the '90s Subies....found link: http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f88/diy-wiper-bushing-fix-how-stop-those-clunking-slapping-wipers-111525/

 

The '95 is only year that has EGR (automatic transmission)  - so it has the port in the cylinder head, AND is OBDII - so the harness/electronics are the same, AND has a DUAL -port head and exhaust - just like the 2.5, for the '96-'99 Legacy's w/the 2.5 (GT, OB, LSi). The '96-'98 2.2 can also be used, but more work.

 

The little things are the vacuum lines, which are explained on here/online somewhere (I've done one, but my 'RAM' is full today).

 

The burnt valve can be repaired by a shop (cost varies a LOT, since shops all charge differently) but the heads have to come off and it's easier (IMHO) to pull the engine, and you should plan on the whole reseal routine if the engine comes out......and even if you do it yourself, it's not going to be cheap. Hopefully I'm WRONG about the burnt valve...but be prepared.

 

TD

 

I already checked the teeth on the arms and transmission. that was the first thing i did. I'm going to check the bushings, chances are that's what is bad. and $5~ fix is better than $100~

 

"The '95 is only year that has EGR (automatic transmission only)" I have a Manual Trans. would a 95 Auto with EGR still be fine?

 

My brother has a Mechanic Friend, I believe he can do Head Work not sure on it. he also doesn't charge me full cost that a shop would. He did a Trans swap in my 93 Tracer and only charged me a bill, took a bit to do as well because the one i pulled got pretty damaged because the U Pick It we went to. They take and use a chisel and hammer to punch holes in Trans, Oil Pan and Gas tanks to drain them. which caused the bottom part of the trans to be damage. So they had to clean and replace with the parts from the old Trans.

 

I can also do a lot of the labor like removing the engine and Heads. I'm competent i just lack good tools and work space. This time of the year i don't want to be crawling around in mud doing work on my car. 

 

If it is a burnt valve, would it be better to get the whole Head worked on and replace the valves or just the damaged ones? should i also go ahead and pull the other side and do the valves there? maybe i should look into a pair or Heads? I planned on having the front seal replaced for sure. but i'll definitely check the rear seal and probably go ahead and replace it. I think it might have fairly new timing on it. this was in an accident and the timing cover is different. one side is old dusty and looks terrible and the little piece on the drivers side is nice and black. 

 

I live about 2 hours from a U Pick it and Pick N pulls so if i need a set of heads i would probably go there. Pick N Pull has a car inventory online. U Pick It is just a local business in KC. they have a KS side and a MO side. the MO side is the largest. it in an old Train Depot. i bought my Tracer Engine for a bill there. its Crate style so it was Block, Heads, Valve covers and oil Pan. I "could" get lucky and find a EJ22 EGR there. however i would need to know how to identify them. it would probably be one of those, buy it, put it on a stand. Get a Rebuild Kit and rebuild/Clean the motor up. however, I probably won't have the money for a second Motor. Most likely got pull the parts i need. Passenger front signal housing, Wiper transmission, heads, and maybe wiper fluid motors and harness. Mine are jury rigged bad. if i have a enough probably grab a set of fenders, so long as they match. driver's Side is scuffed and a couple dents and then the passenger is a solid black replacement.

 

Thanks,

ratch

Edited December 9, 2015 by ratch

[ratch]

Reviving this to give an update. Finally was able to get my brother's assistance. 

 

Did a compression test on all four cylinders. Cyl 2 & 4 are over 170 close to 180 PSI. Cyl 1 & 3 are low, 155 & 120~ respectfully. 

 

Checked Timing. Cams are all in time, well from what we can see. didn't have the tools to remove the Harmonic balancer to check the little gear behind it on the position. We're positive its in time. the cam gears were a bit different than the ones in rebuild videos i watched. but the arrows on the cams lined up with the notch on the back plate thing. Next i want to test Fuel system but its starting to get cold so i came in and will check the fuel system later this week probably.

 

So anything someone can tell me about the low PSI on Cyl 1 & 3? should i look at pulling the head and replacing gaskets? could it be a burnt valve? I know bad Cylinders got sub 100 at least thats the information i have found.

 

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

ratch

[ratch]

Bump for some help?

[idosubaru]

verify all 5 timing marks - all 4 cams and the crank mark.  the flywheel should also have a crankshaft timing mark on it, no need to remove the front timing cover to see the front timing marks.

 

google "how to check for a burnt exhaust valve"

 

 

EJ22 swap, you don't need to ask any questions - just read through this.  if you still have questions you didn't read it carefully enough or are making up questions that don't matter:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/153118-ej22-or-ej18-swap-into-ej25d-dohc-vehicle/

 

EJ25D is the worst engine Subaru has ever made for reliability and maintenance.  not a bad engine, just Subaru's worst in those terms. 

in my opinion no way i'm putting money into a 20 year old platform that's not known for reliability and ease of maintenance when there's a really simple, cheaper, more reliable, and easier to maintain option.  but they're also rusted and aged quicker here than most areas so that sways me.

[ratch]

verify all 5 timing marks - all 4 cams and the crank mark.  the flywheel should also have a crankshaft timing mark on it, no need to remove the front timing cover to see the front timing marks.

 

google "how to check for a burnt exhaust valve"

 

 

EJ22 swap, you don't need to ask any questions - just read through this.  if you still have questions you didn't read it carefully enough or are making up questions that don't matter:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/153118-ej22-or-ej18-swap-into-ej25d-dohc-vehicle/

 

EJ25D is the worst engine Subaru has ever made for reliability and maintenance.  not a bad engine, just Subaru's worst in those terms. 

in my opinion no way i'm putting money into a 20 year old platform that's not known for reliability and ease of maintenance when there's a really simple, cheaper, more reliable, and easier to maintain option.  but they're also rusted and aged quicker here than most areas so that sways me.

 

this is pretty much was a waste of our time. all you did was post a paraphrase of what was already posted and then slapped your opinion on the end. if there was a down vote option i would down vote you. my last post i asked about the PSI levels in my Cyl 1 & 3. this tells me you didn't even read the thread. if you don't like them why are you on this forum? I don't care for your reasons, i don't want you posting in my thread again. 

 

On another note, if only i had the money, i could have gotten a replacement engine for 300-400 bucks. there is a totaled 97 Legacy outback my brother found. the car is not useable but the engine was still alright. we should be getting Income tax shortly and if they can i may see if we can grab the car if they still have it.

[forester2002s]

Woaa! Slow down!

Grossgary was only trying to help you.

You asked for help. And you got some help.

IMHO, your negative comments about someone who is trying to help you, will only serve to discourage anyone else from wanting to help.

[1 Lucky Texan]

the odds of having slipped timing (or, since it was wrecked, cracked cam pulley) are greater than the odds of 2 burned valves yielding almost identically low compression.

 

the crank pulley will come off with 3-4 different techniques - they all work. many people without 'special' tools just use a breaker bar against the frame or the ground and 'bump' the starter. Do you know when the last TB system was serviced? probably needs new rollers and a belt anyway.

 

this forum has helped me a lot, and grossgary is probably the most helpful person on the forum.

[ratch]

I'm not going to argue over another member. I stand by my statement, all he provided was the same thing that was already discussed. which tells me he most likely didn't read the thread itself. I asked about the lower PSI on my Cyl 1 & 3. that information is still what i'm looking for. I also stated that all 4 cams lined up, and that i did not find any marks on the fly wheel. 

 

On another note, i looked up the Subaru my brother found on Craigslist. its a really good Buy TBH. he put some money into the motor prior to the wreck. new timing with pump and belts. as well new tires  and brakes. he has all the receipts. the car is a Impreza, but the engine is identical to my EJ25. I'll know more when i can get in to look at it. the only concern i have is whether its DOHC or SOHC and how identical a 2.2 would be to a 2.5, in appearance. It is stated to be an Auto and if it is SOHC the main worry i would have is whether the fuel management would work with it. I know on some cars converting them to DOHC can be troublesome if the car is auto or manual. My wagon is Manual. if i need to put the SOHC fuel management into my outback, would the fact that the impreza being auto cause issues. This is speculation atm. I need to look at the impreza before i can make any for sure decisions.

 

here is a link for anyone curious. It's an old post, but i called him just a little bit ago and he still has it. the price was even dropped from 600 down to 400. If its the same engine and I get it. Then, i'll put new Head gaskets, valve cover gaskets and main seals in it before i drop it in my car.

http://seks.craigslist.org/cto/5379360252.html

 

@1 lucky texan, the wreck was before i owned it and it was just a fender bender. I don't know if there would be enough to cause a cracked cam pulley. I also already said the cams are all in line. If it was timing all cylinders would run like spoob not just one side of the engine.for the culprit to be timing on the side of the low compression cylinders those would have been out of time. i'm not putting all my horses in the burnt valve scenario, but something is going on that is causing that side of the engine to have really low compression. with the other side having normal compression i wanna say that my be cause the issue. the cause could be a number of things. it could be a failing gasket, It could be worn rings, there is also the burnt valve possibility. There is also other things that i may not be thinking about.

Edited January 25, 2016 by ratch

[1 Lucky Texan]

do the plugs look the same side-to-side?

[ratch]

yeah the plugs look good. a light brown tint. when i bought this a little over a year ago i put new plugs, plug wires and Ignition coil on it. It's supposed to stay relatively nice this week so i plan to go and check the fuel system. I'll check the pressure, and then one by one pull off the plug for the injector to see if one might be clogged. Also want to check the exhaust and see if it sucks my hand in, that's the technique i found on the net for checking for a burnt valve. 

 

The good news is that my brother is talking about going ahead and getting my car fixed since the repairs on her expedition will take some time. My brother has a mechanic friend that "moonlights" he works on vehicles and tractors out of his garage. he is who we go to for repairs. and since he has to do the work after he is off work pulling the engine apart is going to take a few days. I'm trying to determine what to replace. i need to prove that the issue is not electrical. because if its mechanical i have that subaru above lined up for the engine. he hasn't sold it after a couple months. He put new timing on it not long ago.unfortunately there is not as much on the car that i can put on mine. with it being an Impreza, the bodies are not the same. the Car is also Auto so the trans is also out. i'll get a lot under the hood still and hopefully the tires are the same size as mine, he put new tires and brakes on it to,

[ratch]

Ok so with the day being really nice today, I decided to check my car once again. With the better light I can see that this may not be in time. The confusing part is the arrows on my cam gears. However i see the little notches and they don't line up. Passenger side is off by a tooth or two and driver side is all kinds of off. This is based on the notches. There is more than this on the cams. There is also some double notches. I took pics with my cell and attaching to the post.

Edited January 28, 2016 by ratch

[ratch]

 

Great video that explains the timing with good details. thanks to this i know for sure the timing is off.

[djmark7]

t-belt tensioner?

[ratch]

What is a good Brand for the belts? Autozone has a belt for $40, my brother is paying for this and is being a cheapskate so i have to do bare minimum to get it running again. I wanted to get a timing kit, front main seal(mine leaks), and battery. The Impreza i was looking at has a realitively new timing kit on it. as well a newer working battery. tomorrow maybe saturday i'm going to put it in time and make sure its running correctly(no knocking or anything) and then if its fine i'll get a belt. If its not and has a knock or something i'll probably have them pick up that Impreza and do a swap.

[1 Lucky Texan]

most people get full kits from ebay or elsewhere - depending on a few different approaches and 'opinions' - you should at least consider;

 

belt - Gates or Mitsuboshi or dealer (m'boshi may be OEM ?) NOTE! there are reports of a 'generic' belt that fails very early!

 

IF you do the waterpump, I read that most people prefer OEM or Aisin

 

GMB idlers seem to be OK, usually the toothed idler is the first to fail - not the belt.

 

Tensioners - if re-used, should be compressed VERY slowly. over several minutes or the internal seal can rupture.

 

cam./crank seals might be a good idea to replace - must be if leaking.

 

 

confirm you understand all the marks - DO NOT use the arrow/triangle on the front of the crank sprocket - use the dashed line on the back tab. Find out the tooth count and triple check timing marks and tooth counts (crank the engine around twice with a wrench on the crank bolt) before and after pulling the tensioner pin. Crank the engine around twice again and check the marks and tooth count before starting.

 

 

do not skimp on the TB service, if valves aren't already bent, they will be when the toothed idler fails (or one of the others. If the present belt isn't severely worn, you could check the tensioner and other parts, retime the engine and run it enough to decide if valves are bent - if they are, at 250K, probably better to get a lower miles engine from a wrech, throw a TB kit on it, and go from there.

 

maybe others will chime in with suggestions. Tough spot you're in but, it's an interference engine and MAJOR damage will result if the TB service isn't done correctly.

Edited January 29, 2016 by 1 Lucky Texan

[ratch]

most people get full kits from ebay or elsewhere - depending on a few different approaches and 'opinions' - you should at least consider;

 

belt - Gates or Mitsuboshi or dealer (m'boshi may be OEM ?) NOTE! there are reports of a 'generic' belt that fails very early!

 

IF you do the waterpump, I read that most people prefer OEM or Aisin

 

GMB idlers seem to be OK, usually the toothed idler is the first to fail - not the belt.

 

Tensioners - if re-used, should be compressed VERY slowly. over several minutes or the internal seal can rupture.

 

cam./crank seals might be a good idea to replace - must be if leaking.

 

 

confirm you understand all the marks - DO NOT use the arrow/triangle on the front of the crank sprocket - use the dashed line on the back tab. Find out the tooth count and triple check timing marks and tooth counts (crank the engine around twice with a wrench on the crank bolt) before and after pulling the tensioner pin. Crank the engine around twice again and check the marks and tooth count before starting.

 

 

do not skimp on the TB service, if valves aren't already bent, they will be when the toothed idler fails (or one of the others. If the present belt isn't severely worn, you could check the tensioner and other parts, retime the engine and run it enough to decide if valves are bent - if they are, at 250K, probably better to get a lower miles engine from a wrech, throw a TB kit on it, and go from there.

 

maybe others will chime in with suggestions. Tough spot you're in but, it's an interference engine and MAJOR damage will result if the TB service isn't done correctly.

 

I'm checking the timing double again. the pics i added, the passenger side(rounded front cams) the notches are lined up on the top cam(right side of the pic) the bottom cam is not in line. i'll turn the crank a few times and re align it before I start pulling the timing off. i'm going to reuse the current belt to test the timing after double checking the timing. then i'll fire it up.

 

the front seal is also getting replaced, its like $11 from autozone so i'll probably pick that up monday. should i look at an Oil pump gasket? there are a couple bolts missing from the central timing belt cover. going to take one up with me and get some replacements. I really don't want to skimp on TB i understand how important it is.

 

The engine i have lined up is the link to craigslist above a few posts. Its got relatively new timing w/ pump, tires, brakes, and a few others. its a steal for $400. 

 

I'm probably going to make them get Belt, Toothed Idler, and a Tensioner. they're fixing my car since moms will take time to get done(burnt valve, v8 triton, 98 Expidition) how will i know if the valves are bent? i'm assuming some kind of noise.

[ccrinc]

Two things:

 

1) Are you absolutely POSITIVE that the Impreza engine is the same? I ask because a '97 Impreza would have had an EJ18 or EJ22 in it, UNLESS the engine was swapped.  http://www.cars101.com/impreza_archive97_98.html#1997%20impreza

Definitely not the same as the EJ25 in your Outback.  It is "swappable", but you'll need a single port exhaust header, not the dual port the EJ25 has.

 

2)  I wonder why nobody ever mentions this:  ONLY rotate an interference engine clockwise (as seen from the front position).  Rotating the engine backward will cause it to jump time.  FYI.

 

Emily

[ratch]

you bring up a great point. I tried to search his VIN but it was invalid. I'm wanting to go look at it but i haven't had the spare time. regardless i may not need it. and the timing will fix my car. I did ask about the Impreza earlier in the thread but no one responded about it. thank you for the info =]

 

I have looked at Timing stuff and i will not disagree, however the guy in the vid does state only counter clockwise the driverside bottom cam IF its within 90 degrees.

[ratch]

pulled the car apart today. got the timing reset. went over the marks multiple times. battery is shot won't hold a charge that will turn the motor. So i had to bust out the Jumper cables and jump it. It fires up, runs for a moment then dies. on start up i can here a "knocking"? I'm hoping thats just the engine trying to lube itself after sitting so long. That's what it sounds like almost anyways. Going to do some more with it tomorrow and maybe pull the timing cover off again and check the timing again. I checked it to make sure the timing was right after i set it. Cyl 1 & 3 Intake Cam was what had jumped. everything else was in time.