cam shaft seals fall out?

[dburton97128]

I've had a problem in the past with cam shaft oil seals working their way out and laying loose on the shaft.  They seemed to fit plenty tight in the bore during installation, as expected.  What's the deal with this, and is their a good preventive measure to stop it happening again?  Adhesive,....?

 

It looks like I have increasing oil leaks and need to do these again, and probably the crank seal as well.  Hope I can get it out.

 

Thanks.

[Fairtax4me]

What brand of seals did you use?

 

Were the seals installed all the way to the bottom of the bore? This can sometimes block the drain hole in the bottom and oil pressure can force the seal out.

[porcupine73]

One additional thing just brainstorming I know there's been a post or two over the years from someone getting a chunk of rtv or something plugging up the passageway and wreaking various havoc. I think they said they fished a piece of copper wire or something through there to clean it out.

[1 Lucky Texan]

PCV system clogged?

 

might be a good idea to check oil pressure - maybe the relief valve or a clog is increasing oil pressure?

[johnceggleston]

replace the pcv,

replace the seals with seals from a subaru dealer.

change the oil?

 

cheap seals do not save you anything.

they cost you.

 

i had this happen about 40k miles after a timing belt change.

i'm pretty sure i had the seals replaced at the same time,

but not 100% sure.

 

ps: some folks say use only a ''subaru'' pcv.

[dburton97128]

I don't recall the seal source.  Probably not Subaru, maybe NAPA..  Never have trouble with NAPA seals in any other application.

 

Don't see how oil pressure can cause this.  No oil pressure behind the seal, and even if the drain hole is obstructed there's only about 1/8" of oil that can collect behind it anyway.

 

I thought of the PCV and did check for crankcase pressure, but it's OK.   A direct check of the PCV seems OK as well.

 

I probably lubricated these seals with a good grease before pressing them in.  Maybe that was a bad idea.  I should probably stick to a thin oil in the future.  I wouldn't want to use any adhesive, except maybe RTV so it doesn't make it harder to replace next time.

 

In this case the seals are leaking again, but not fallen out.  (that happened a few years ago but not again).  I think it might mainly be the crank seal that is leaking now, which has also been replaced in the past (9 years ago?)

 

Do the Subaru genuine seals really work better or last longer than NAPA?

 

Thanks.

[Fairtax4me]

There is oil pressure behind the cam and crank seals. It seals the bearing journal and the cam journal is pressure lubricated.

There was a thread here not long ago about a cam seal pushing out as soon as the engine started because of a clogged drain hole.

 

Napa uses a few different brands for their seals. Have seen some that are great and some not so much. Subaru seals are always very high quality. You pay a little extra but there's no gambling on the quality of what's in the box. (Plastic baggie in Subarus case)

 

On the rubber body seals I've never had to use RTV or other sealer to get them to stay put. A little fresh engine oil on the outside usually is all they need to pop into place. I've used grease before as well, but only a small amount.

 

If the seals are just leaking, that could either be due to seal quality, old oil residue left on the shaft, or the shaft was damaged when the old seals were removed.

 

Get one of these Lisle seal pullers if you don't have one. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000FPYW4K?vs=1

 

I've found one seal in maybe 100 that it couldn't pull. Metal housing seal that was rusted into a sbc350 timing cover. Everything else I've used it on it pulls with ease and has never even left a mark.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Fairtax4me

[idosubaru]

no sealant needed, seal was compromised, installation was compromised, or something else. 

 

i'd also go for Subaru seals this time.  they are notably high quality.

 

it's very rare but i've had aftermarket seals not fit well and leak, never had that happen with Subaru seal. 

 

someone posted pictures and mic'ed a subaru and aftermarket seal years ago - like 10 years ago with pictures - and they differed. 

maybe not even enough to cause issue - i don't know the tolerance nor have set up a research lab.  LOL

i've used gobs of aftermarket seals and only ever had one issue i can recall - it's rare but it can happen and i don't think is shocking. 

[johnceggleston]

the cam seal of mine that popped out did it at about 40k miles

and was installed by a very reputable shop. (not subaru specific but foreign car specific.)

this was before i started doing my own work.

 

the problem with comparing subaru seals to after market,

unless the seal fails immediately,

you may not find fault for 40k miles.

and at that point you may not remember the brand used.

 

on my first ej22 swap,

i bought a ''cheap'' gasket set off ebay, evergreeen i think.

i didn't need the head gaskets,

but i got EVERY thing i did need for cheap.

i used the seals and they failed at 45k miles.

so i either do the job again 15k early,

or the seals leak for 2 years until i get to 60k.

 

after i did that swap, but way before the seals started leaking,

i read posts about subaru seal quality and decided only suabru in the future.

the seals needed for a timing belt job,

cam, crank, oil pump o-ring, t-stat gasket and water pump gasket,

can be bought at the local dealer for about $37 retail.

less if you get them whole sale. ~$30.

how much can you save with aftermarket seals.

when you are doing preventative maintenance, t-belt job,

you are going to spend some money.$150 - $250.??

i can't see saving 10% and risking either engine life or having to redo the labor.

it just does not make sense to me.

Edited January 5, 2016 by johnceggleston

[dburton97128]

I have one of those pullers, though not the last time I did this.

 

Nice write up and pictures.  Thanks.