gravitate Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Hi folks. I've got a 96 Outback with a 2.2 and I'm wanting to put a hydraulic clutch in. I'm aware that I'll need a master and slave cylinder and a hydraulic fork but what else? What do I need for the pedal box? Also I'm told that the 3.90 trannys have a different pivot point than a 4.11 so does the 3.90 of that year have the option to screw the pivot stud into a different position or do I need to tap it? Any help would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) Why??? The cable clutch works fine, if your cable broke just replace it, they're about $50 from the dealer. Careful you route the cable properly or you'll break it again. That said... you can swap to a hydro clutch setup if you really want. You need master, slave, and the hose that goes between them with the bracket. there's a bracket that holds the hose to the firewall. You need a pedal box, there should already be a plastic plug in the firewall where the clutch rod goes through. You need the hydraulic clutch fork, and you need to pull the engine or transmission. You have to change the clutch fork pivot, the hole is already drilled and tapped in the hydraulic location, just clean the grime out of the threads and swap it over. As far as I know, the pivots aren't different depending on the final drive of the transmission. I've never compared them side by side, but I've had both apart, swapped parts between them etc and never noticed a difference. You're in for a ridiculous amount of work when swapping the clutch cable is cheap and easy... Edited January 7, 2016 by 987687 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 You lose the hill holder with the hydraulic clutch. Hydraulic clutch release lever is different, and so is the pivot point inside the trans. The hole is already there and drilled, you just have to move the pivot stud, but that requires separating the engine and trans to get to. Pivot point difference is not due to final drive 3.90/4.11, difference is between hydraulic and cable actuation. either one can be made to work on either trans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravitate Posted January 7, 2016 Author Share Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) Great info thanks guys. I drove a Subaru with a cable for 9 years and I believe it has contributed to a serious lower back/hip issue I have because of how hard it was to push and because of my stop and go job I pushed it a ton. I went to a 99 with hydraulic and I enjoy driving again. I will be installing a new clutch anyways so the main work will be easy. I plan on removing the abs system because I absolutely hate abs and when I remove the pump I have room for a big auxiliary battery for a power inverter. I'll then put a brake master cylinder and front brake lines on from a non abs legacy. That's the current setup I have on my 99 and I love it. I'll then take the pivit and cable from a 04 Forester xt so I can have a hydraulic clutch with hill holder. A days work for all of this but totally worth it to me. Call me crazy Edited January 7, 2016 by gravitate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) If your cable clutch is hard to push something is screwed up. I've never seen a hydraulic clutch as light as a cable clutch. I've driven brand new subarus with hydro clutches, and the cable clutch in my fiancee's legacy is still lighter. When I had to pull the engine to change the clutch I thoroughly cleaned the TOB snout area (where the TOB slides), splines and clutch fork pivot. I regreased them with a high quality synthetic wheelbearing grease. I replaced the clutch cable because it was starting to fray at the clutch end, making sure to properly route it. I was honestly completely shocked at how light the action was!! At the same time, I've seen hydraulic clutches that were really hard to use. It's usually a crusty old master or slave cylinder combined with a poorly done clutch job or just an original clutch that's 20 years old and really tired. All the grease is dried up and sticky making it not work well. The cable clutch isn't your problem here, it's old and sticky grease, an old binding up clutch cable, or a clutch cable that was routed incorrectly. If you get a long straw you can pull the clutch fork foreward and spray white lithium grease down the back side of the clutch fork, sometimes that can help lube a sticky or squeaking ball pivot. Edited January 7, 2016 by 987687 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikaleda Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Ya, I have a 99 outback with hydraulic clutch and my 90 (cable) and the cable is much easier to push IMHO, and I like having a functional hill holder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravitate Posted January 7, 2016 Author Share Posted January 7, 2016 Wow thats good to hear. Hard to believe considering what I've tried but I guess there is hope. I had a 91 legacy that was hard as hell. I changed the clutch and the cable twice with no luck. I had another 96 that was equally as hard to push. I've worked on many of my friends cars and they were all hard but not as bad as my 91. Every hydro including my 99 is like stepping on butter. So easy that I thought the clutch was out when I first tried this 99. What's everyone else's experience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 I had a Ford ranger with a hydraulic clutch that felt like trying to crush a brick. After driving that, if I got in my 96 I couldn't even feel the cable clutch because it was so light compared to the truck. Kinda comparing apples to grapes though. I've driven quite a few Subaru clutches and never noticed any real difference between the hydraulic and cable. Its possible someone tampered with the clutch on your previous car to make it stiffer to push. Maybe they installed a heavy return spring on the pedal or removed it for some reason and installed it backwards. Is the clutch noticeably more difficult to push in your 96 compared to the 99 you mentioned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravitate Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 Yeah the 96 was way way stiffer. On my 91 subaru I had 2 different clutches with no difference, both stiff. The pedal spring broke at one point and I replaced it and no difference. I bought a 96 outback today but I havent picked it up yet, kinda sight unseen. I just thought because of all subis I tried with cable clutches sucking, that I would do the research but maybe I'll get lucky and mine will be easy. I'll know in a couple days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Cable vs hydro really doesn't compare well between different car designs, there's so much variability in the strength of the clutch pressure plate springs and the amount of mechanical leverage offered through the clutch linkages. Comparing my Tacoma to my sisters Civic for example, both are hydro clutches, but the pedal effort is very different! I will say that the older and more worn a clutch is, often the stiffer the pedal gets. Some of that is the grease drying up on the linkage, but most of it is the pressure plate spring. As the disk wears the spring fingers move to a steeper and steeper angle, and I think that makes it harder for the throwout bearing to push them down. That's my theory at least, but I've noticed on a number of cars that I've done nothing but replace the clutch on that they were way easier to release than before. The 95 and 96 legacys that we have with cable clutches are nice and easy, but I replaced the clutches on both of them in the last few years. The 03 outback with a hydro clutch is noticably stiffer, and I did the clutch in that one a couple years ago too. The only disadvantage to a cable clutch is needing to manually adjust it. I would put a new release fork in with the new clutch, lube the pivot and the inside of the throwout bearing with synthetic brake caliper grease, and keep using the cable clutch. They work great when everything is working as designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravitate Posted January 11, 2016 Author Share Posted January 11, 2016 So I finally got to try the car out and Wow what a difference this clutch is compared to all the other Subi cable clutches I've ever tried. It is way easier than my 91 but its just a bit harder than my 99. Although I feel it can improve a bit with some lube. So thank god I won't be going hydro now. I will be replacing the clutch though just for piece of mind and because I have to do the rear main seal anyways. Does anyone have any preferences on which clutch to get. I'll want to get one at Autozone, Orielly, Advanced or Pep boys because of the price being around the same. Anyone better than the other or maybe less stiffer than the other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) I usually use exedy, that's the OEM manufacture for subaru. No idea if you can get it at a parts store, I just buy from rockauto. Either have your flywheel resurfaced or replace it. Unless it's in really good condition, then you can just scuff it up. Edited January 11, 2016 by 987687 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 X2 on Exedy Clutch kit. Last one I got was on Amazon I think for under $150 IIRC. Be careful of some listings as they may put an Exedy disc with a cheaper pressure plate and cheap bearings. For the 2.2, Exedy clutch kit is P/N 15010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Most likely it's the oil separator plate, part of the PCV system that's inside the bellhousing. They leak all the time, rear mains rarely do. The rear main is also hard to get pressed back into the block straight, so if it's not leaking it's best to leave it be rather than try replacing it and having the new one not go in straight. because I have to do the rear main seal anyways. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravitate Posted January 15, 2016 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 You nailed it. Super leaky oil separator and the rear main was fine. Damn plastic parts. Luckily I have a spare aluminum one. Any suggestions on what to use to seal it? Rtv black maybe? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Ultra Grey is usually my weapon of choice for that. Mega Black works pretty well too though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravitate Posted January 15, 2016 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 Ok, so do you let the ultra grey dry before you tighten completely or just tighten righy away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Always tighten right away with RTV or any other silicone type sealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 You're supposed to let it sit until it glazes over a bit. I generally apply RTV, let it sit for 10 minutes and assemble. I've never had a problem doing that. When I worked at the shop time was of the essence... I'd put red RTV on a tranny pan, diff cover, or whatever. Slap it on, tighten it down. Lower the car and add oil. Never once had a problem with leaks. I don't like black RTV because it's basically glue, if you ever have to take the cover off again you'll have to torch it pretty hot to get the bond to break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravitate Posted January 25, 2016 Author Share Posted January 25, 2016 I decided to put in a new clutch in this car and when I opened it up I noticed it had a stainless steel sleeve that went over the transmission snout. I guess they put them on if your snout is all chewed up or worn from your throw out bearing. So that explains why it was a lighter feeling pedal compared to all the other ones I've tried. The inner sleeve to the throw out bearing is plastic and after closer inspection I could tell it was cracked causing it to not slide as freely as it should. I called up the company and they got me a new one and a updated sleeve. I installed it and when I pushed on the pedal I can literally feel no difference between a clutch pedal without a cable connected and the clutch. It is the easiest clutch I've ever tried on any vehicle. I highly recommend that sleeve kit that Tranquil from PDMUSA.com sells. No more clutch shudder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 In a couple weeks all the grease will squish out and the new parts will wear in and you'll be able to feel some resistance in the pedal. New clutch stuff is always really easy to push for a little while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravitate Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 Yeah I've had many new clutches but even new clutches don't feel this good. This setup with the sleeve was on it and it was already the easiest cable clutch I had ever tried before I put a new one on. Even if it was bone dry I feel that a throwout bearing will ride much smoother on a perfectly round stainless steel sleeve vs a worn aluminum shaft. Keeping my fingers crossed though. Also the Bearing is sealed so even after it brakes in it wont squeak like my other ones always do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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