Rear main look ok? Replacing Oil Separator Plate seal & wrist pin

[protivakid]

Got the tranny pulled. A few questions now.

 

From the pic below it looks like the rear main is not leaking and the wrist pin access and separator are. Agree or should I tackle the rear main as well? The freshest oil seemed to be around the wrist pin access with that getting thrown other places where it dried/caked.

 

Any pics of how much grey rtv to use on the separator plate? Only pic google shows is where one guy smeared a ton on. I also have red Mopar anaerobic sealer which looks the same as the Permatex stuff. Would this be preferred over RTV grey?

 

Any RTV / sealer on the wrist pin access or just a fresh o-ring?

 

[Olnick]

Don't mess with the rear main!  Consensus here on the board is that installing a new one is tricky and chances of botching it up are too great.  Besides, to my (untrained) eye yours looks good!

 

I'm sure others with more experience will give you good advice on sealing the separator and wrist pin plates.

 

Good luck!

[Fairtax4me]

How many miles are on this engine? 

Unless you know you can install the new rear main perfectly straight and perfectly in the same spot as the old one, don't mess with it. They tend to go 250-300k without even any seepage. 

 

Don't want to go overboard with RTV. A light smear is really all it takes. The stuff that gets squeezed out doesn't help it seal any better, it just makes a mess and lets chunks of RTV fall off into the oil pan to get stuck in the pickup screen.

 

You can use either the anaerobic or RTV on the separator plate. On the new stamped steel plates RTV tends to work better because torquing the screws down can cause slight gaps to open between the block and plate between the screws. That slight gap can be wider than what anaerobic sealant needs in order to cure properly. 

On the aluminum plates you can use either. 

 

The wrist pin cover can be done any way you please. RTV, O-ring, both, doesn't really matter as long as you get the sealing surface clean and dry before applying.  

[protivakid]

230K on the engine, bought it at 130K and assume the engine is original.

 

I applied the grey RTV to the plate but my fear is that I now did too little. I did a bead 1/16 to 1/8 thick, smeared out only spots that looked thin. I applied it to the block right after taking the first pic you see below. I favored the outer side thinking that when it squeezes out it will squeeze away from the inside of the engine. I torqued things up and now my fear is that I went to far out and did not go in far enough with the RTV to properly contact the engine mating surfaces. The second pic is what it looks like on the block. Think I should let it dry a day and take it off to try again this time favoring the inside of the mating surface? Should I go bigger or smaller with my bead if I try again?

 

Edited January 12, 2016 by protivakid

[Fairtax4me]

Yeah I would suggest doing that one again.

 

Apply the head then take your finger the whole way around and smear it out flat all the way across the raised perimeter of the plate.

 

Before you remove it, use brake cleaner to thoroughly clean all around the area of the plate. There is still some oil residue above the plate and that can run down and cause your sealer to not adhere as well along the top.

[protivakid]

Yeah I would suggest doing that one again.

 

Apply the head then take your finger the whole way around and smear it out flat all the way across the raised perimeter of the plate.

 

Before you remove it, use brake cleaner to thoroughly clean all around the area of the plate. There is still some oil residue above the plate and that can run down and cause your sealer to not adhere as well along the top.

 

I pulled the plate again this morning and despite where I put the bead it actually made a nice consistent seal all the way around. I still wouldn't have been comfortable though not knowing so glad I pulled it. Will do a better job this time.

 

Next question. The driver's side rear cam cap/plug seems to be leaking. I don't think it's just splatter, it's dry above the plug and went under. The passenger side is fine. Is this something easy to correct? I have seem some say use RTV grey on the plug & others say you have to pull the timing belt and everything to get access to an oil ring.

 

[Fairtax4me]

The rear cam plugs you just pop out with a screwdriver. Right where it humps upon the edge of the cap, hammer a small flathead screwdriver in and use it to pry the plug out. 

Hammer it in pretty much in the same direction your arrow is pointing. 

 

Get the new plug from the dealer. O-ring is on the front side of the head behind the cam carrier extension. Worry about that one when you do the timing belt. 

 

The passenger side head has the O-ring on the back under the round plate with the two bolts. Remove the two bolts. Twist the plate a bit as you pull outward. The o-ring will probably be hard as plastic and stuck to the plate. 

[protivakid]

I wanted to come here with one hopefully last post that will help and future readers. We got the car back together and for a week now it has been fine. First time ever dropping a transmission on a Subaru.

 

Overall the project took 2.5-ish days with a week in between day 2 & 3 working at a slow pace reading over the pages from the Full/Factory Service Manual multiple times. We put all bolts in individual baggies and labeled them as they came out.

 

Here is the FSM link should anyone need it down the road: http://jdmfsm.info/Auto/Japan/Subaru/Legacy%20Outback/2002

 

There were a few things from the manual that were not mentioned and I wish we did differently. ONE - We removed the pitching stopper but should have removed the bracket on the bell housing that the pitching stopper bolts into. When trying to drop the transmission we got hung up on this bracket several times and ended up having to reach our tools in to remove it while it was wedged between the firewall and the bellhousing with some weight of the transmission on it. This would have much easier been done BEFORE separating the transmission from the engine.

 

TWO - Support the weight of the engine from the front (as it will want to rock forward) and underneath if you can without damaging the oil pan. We supported from the front but still when separating the transmission like many others the torque converter was stuck to the engine. This caused the oil shaft from the transmission to stick/wedge into the shaft cover on the torque converter. There was no good way at this point to get the converter to slide black onto the transmission without forcing so we had to play tetris while making sure the entire weight of the tranny WAS NOT being hung by the oil shaft until we had just enough room for the oil shaft to clear the shaft cover on the converter. After that the transmission would finally come out. Reading after if we had simply supported the engine properly the torque converter and tranny would have come out as a single unit making things much easier and not leading to the re-seating of the converter which I will discuss later. Transmission fluid from the torque converter also poured all over my floor and a towel was sacrificed to clean up. Wish I had cardboard under there before starting.

 

THREE - We did not have the "STOPPER SET" the FSM mentions to lock the converter into place so instead I put a wrench and deep socket on the crank pulley bolt and held it tight while my friend loosened the drive plate to torque converter bolts. I used the wrench to turn the pulley another 90 degrees so he could get to the next of the 4 bolts through the bellhousing access cover. He had enough room to work there with just taking the air box & pcv hose off leaving the throttle body on. We used this same approach to torque the bolts back up when reinstalling the transmission.

 

FOUR - The manual mentions something about not touching the transmission oil pan metal to metal with the transmission jack. We used a towel between and at first were trying to split the jack weight between the diff & transmission pan. Bad idea as the transmission was wobbly and unstable on the jack like this. We had to use a 2nd jack from the rear to lift the tranny some and correct our mistake by sliding the tranny pan completely onto the jack . Looking at a later picture the subaru manual shows a transmission jack under the oil pan without an issue. We just used the tranny jack on the pan with a towel between to lower the tranny the rest of the way. To raise back up we used the same method but the front of the tranny needs to go higher than the rear to clear/slide onto the bottom two engine mounting studs. I again used a 2nd jack for this task with a block of wood in-between jacking up under the front diff. 

 

FIVE - Again that MANUAL Craftsman Impact Driver 47641 was critical to breaking the phillips head oil separator bolts. DO NOT try to use anything else or you will strip them like I started to. No one wants to drill bolts out of the back of an engine laying on their back underneath while its still in the car. This tool made the job very very easy.

 

SIX - We did not remove the stabilizer link at all. Instead we removed the top camber bolt of the strut and loosened the bottom one. I have lifetime alignments at Firestone so I was not worried about having to re-align the car. This allowed us to tilt the hub enough for the axle to easily come out. To get the axle out of the diff make sure you have a small punch set (my harbor freight one did ok but smaller punches would have been preferred) and a good pair of vice grips to pull & twist the spring pin out of there once you have punched it enough to grab on. If I had a smaller punch the vice grips may not have been needed.

 

SEVEN - The FSM forgets to mention the step of putting the starter back in, don't forget this and check over all other steps many times.

 

EIGHT - If you are a torque spec fanatic like myself you will need one of those crows feet type wrenches to get around the rear propeller shaft bolts to use a torque wrench, there is not enough room for a socket.

 

NINE - Until we actually got the transmission lowered I was picturing that I was going to remove it completely from the car. I was using jackstands for the front and ramps for the rear. With this setup and my harbor freight tranny jack there was NO way the transmission was going to have enough room to come completely out from underneath the car as it was just too tall. I had enough room to work on it under there for what I needed to do with the oil seals and torque converter but if you want to take it all the way out for any reason think about this before starting work and plan how you will lift the vehicle.

 

TEN - To get to all of the 4 bolts with a basic box wrench on the rear propeller shaft you will need to spin the rear wheels to spin the shaft. If your car is on ramps for the rear you can't do this. I had to jack the car up with a block of wood under the rear diff off the ramps, spin the rear wheels, lower, loosen / tighten bolt #1, and then repeat for bolts 2-3. Jack stands in the rear would have made this easier if I had an extra set.

 

ELEVEN - The FSM mentions to take the transmission dip-stick out but not the actual dip stick shaft. This comes out with one bolt and mine was again smacking against the bottom of the car as we dropped the tranny. It was harder to remove after when we noticed it making contact vs doing it with the transmission still on the engine (but with the starter out). Cheap insurance to take out before you hit yours dropping the tranny.

 

TWELVE - The FSM only pictures unplugging one of the 2 transmission harness connectors, you need to unplug both. I also took the passenger side one off of its clip bracket as it was starting to hit into the firewall when trying to align the transmission back into the car and onto the bottom two engine studs. My friend also removed the rear O2 sensor connector wire while he was under there and brought it up into the engine bay. I didn't look to see if it was needed but he thought when we tried to drop the tranny it would have been pulling on that.

 

THIRTEEN - To get the drive plate bolts off we but put a pry bar through the access hole on the passenger side to hold it in place. To torque the bolts back down after putting them in loosely I went with the two screwdriver method of putting one screwdriver through the hole halfway down each side of the engine and through the plate to hold it in place. Both methods worked fine and neither led to damage at least for me.

 

FOURTEEN - I used a little bit of grey RTV as well on the perimeter of the rear wrist pin access cover and the rear camshaft cap as extra insurance against leaks. Make sure to note how far deep the old camshaft cap is in if you replace yours.

 

This youtube video from briansmobile1 helped me A LOT to get a basic idea of what was needed despite being for a manual car and my job being done on an automatic:

 

I started Friday night and got the exhaust, propeller shaft, exhaust shield, air box, and starter off alone. Saturday my friend came over to remove the axles and transmission. I had to then order a few small parts from the dealer over the week and with work I didn't have time to get back under there. The following Saturday my friend returned and we got the car back together.

 

*PARTS*

I had previously ordered a new separator plate, separator plate hex screws, wrist pin access gasket, and rear main seal. I did not use the rear main as it was not leaking when I got under there. Read from many only to replace if needed as new ones tend to cause leaks if not sealed right. I also had a metal oil separator plate which I didn't know until I got in there but chose to use the newer style metal one with the newer non-philips head screws. I had to order a few parts from Subaru during the week:

 

-Two phillips head screws for the rear wrist pin access because the old were stripped

-A new transmission oil seal as the old can be ripped if the torque converter sticks to the engine. Not sure if I damaged mine so I replaced. I used a block of wood with the old gasket in between the new and the wood to evenly tap the new one in.

-A new transmission oil shaft end o-ring because it's cheap and I was already in there

-A new transmission oil shaft cover c-clip as the tabs on the old one were destroyed when the torque converter stuck to the engine.

-Two new OEM axle spring pins as I am told the aftermarket style is inferior

-Rear camshaft cover driver's side, mine was leaking and much easier to do while tranny is out

-I had some already but in total I went through 6 or 7 bottles of Subaru ATF to re-fill the transmission after

-Oil and filter for an oil change. I drained the engine before removing the separator plate, not sure if I needed to but it was due for a change anyhow.

 

*Seating the Torque converter*

I had to do this for the first time ever and despite everyone making a big fuss about it, I only spent a few minutes to get it right. I measured how much the torque converter stuck out from the bell housing and it was perfectly within spec of the FSM. There was also like a fingernails worth of room between the torque converter and the bellhousing starter hole so I knew it was seated properly. Put the c-clip on the oil shaft cover, and then the cover onto the torque converter assembly with the c-clip (takes some time as the c-clip fights you some to squeeze in). Align the torque converter and the shaft cover as a unit back onto the oil shaft. Sometimes the shaft cover slides into the transmission but should easily slide back out if you can catch it's tab/lip using a tool and without scratching it. The first click in happened right away when I was trying to line it up so I wasn't sure if it was an actual click where it seated or I just got it in a good spot to work toward the first click. I tried to align it some more and felt two clicks after so that along with the FSM tape measure measurements I knew it was in. I was told to make sure there was AT fluid in the converter before reinstalling. After I got the engine and transmission back together but before bolting the converter & drive plate to each other I made sure both spun independently without making contract. When you bolt the drive plate back to the converter it should pull the converter to it, they should not be hitting prior. If they are you did not seat the converter properly and need to correct so you don't destroy your tranny oil pump. These threads helped me seat it properly:

 

http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/110-gen-2-2000-2004/159242-torque-converter-came-out-engine.html#post1743482

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/79130-how-to-seat-your-torque-converter-by-mnwolftrack/

 

*How much grey RTV on the separator plate*

Online I could only find one picture where a guy "gunked up" his separator plate with Permatex Grey and then everyone told him how bad he did and how his oil passages and pickup tube would clog with RTV. I didn't want to use too much so I followed one post where it was said to use between 1/8" & 1/16" bead all the way around. I then put on a disposable glove and used my finger to spread it evenly which I was told is important. I put the plate back on without waiting for the RTV to harden and torqued the bolts in a star pattern. Here are a few pics of how much RTV I used. If anything I was worried it was too little but knock on wood a week later I am still ok under the car. Still checking daily for new oil puddles on the garage floor.

 

 

When I first drove the car I did notice a very small puddle after a short drive but we spilled so much tranny fluid from having the torque converter stick that I think it was just that and old oil dripping off. I was worried things didn't seal correctly and I'd be repeating the job but so far it's stayed dry under there.

 

*Torque Specs*

Here are some torque specs not directly listed in the removal/install step-by-step FSM sections that helped me out:

 

Drive plate (AT) torque 52.8 ft lbs

Oil separator cover torque 4.7 ft lbs

crankshaft pulley bolts torque 130.2 ft-lb

Service hole cover torque 4.7 ft lbs

Pitching stopper bracket transmission torque 30.4 ft lbs

Transmission dip stick pipe 30.4 ft-lb

 

I will add anything I forgot if I remember down the road. Feel free to say I did something incorrectly, should have completed a step using another method, or forgot to mention something... it can only help the future backyard mechanics trying to fix this themselves for the first time. Good luck all.

Edited January 26, 2016 by protivakid

[forester2002s]

Great write-up!

[Fairtax4me]

Now you can see why some things are not always mentioned. It takes a book to cover the whole process and any hang ups or other odd issues that may pop up through the course of the job. It's not possible to cover every conceivable situation. And often the way a job gets done differs widely based on what tools you have available, and how comfortable you are at doing that job.

 

Good info in your post-fix write-up! Hopefully that will help someone else who needs to get this job done! Glad to hear your car is back on the road and running well!

[protivakid]

Great write-up!

 

 

Now you can see why some things are not always mentioned. It takes a book to cover the whole process and any hang ups or other odd issues that may pop up through the course of the job. It's not possible to cover every conceivable situation. And often the way a job gets done differs widely based on what tools you have available, and how comfortable you are at doing that job.

 

Good info in your post-fix write-up! Hopefully that will help someone else who needs to get this job done! Glad to hear your car is back on the road and running well!

 

Thanks guys, it always stinks when you do the right thing, use search, find a thread where some guy is doing the exact same job you are hitting the exact same issues and after everyone helps he never returns the favor by posting the resolution. I may not be a master Subaru mechanic but I try to post a few tips after the job is done to help future readers. I feel it's owed after all you guys took the time to help answer my questions along the way.