Low idle with my '92 Loyale

[TheEmpireStrikesBack]

Okay, everybody, so I'm having another problem with my '92 Loyale. It was running fine with the new battery and I got the shim for the loose terminal and that was the fix. But now it struggled to start a couple nights ago, and it's been really, really cold out in my area. It gave a good crank and tried to start but died. I tried again and the same thing happened. Tried once more and that time I pumped the gas while I cranked engine and it got started then, but the vehicle vibrated a little and the idle did not start out high but very low. Also there's been a squealing noise too, like maybe a belt on one of the pulleys? Once the engine warms up the squeal usually stops. After that I was able to start the car fine each time but there's this problem of it idling really low.

 

Any answers, guys? Could it be the arctic weather that caused the problem? Too much cold weather affecting the engine and components? And what can I do about it? I don't think the timing slipped because I got that fixed already last year, brand new timing belt and new plugs and distributor. I saw one of Scotty Kilmer's vids about using an idle throttle cleaner that could solve the problem, but what does my situation seem like to you guys?

[DaveT]

Mine have started normally below zero F.  So unless you are talking way below that, I doubt it's just due to excess cold.

The CTS could screw up cold idle. Or hot idle.  Or anything in between.   The idle air control valve could screw up normal idle, not sure about cold, just because I never had one fail and tried to start cold.  The one I had fail, failed while driving home, so was fixed before I had a chance to find out how it would effect cold starting.

 

Most electric & electronic circuits can be effected by temperature, so it is possible for anything involved with engine control is partly failed. 

 

The squeal noise, could be a bad idler bearing, or a V belt slipping.  Check and tighten the v belts, if it still squeals, start checking the idler / s.  There is one on some versions with A/C, and 3 in the timing belt system.  Alternator bearings could theoretically fail that way also, but less likely.

 

If it is the V belts, you may need new ones, as once they slip some, they get prone to slip more.

[987687]

First off, don't pump the accelerator; it's fuel injected not carbureted. To start it, just hold the accelerator down a little bit, it will work much better than pumping it.

In a carbed car, pumping actuates the accelerator pump spraying extra fuel, in a fuel injected car it just frigs with the ECU and makes the thing harder to start. Furthermore full throttle while cranking is flood clear mode, ie. it gives no fuel to the engine.

 

Now to the problem. I had the same issue with my GL when it was below zero degrees, had to give it a little bit of throttle to fire up. Then I had to keep a bit of throttle for a minute until the idle settled out. The issue was a gummed up IACV not wanting to work when it was extremely cold. The IACV is on the front of the intake manifold facing the radiator and is held on with four Phillips screws that really suck to get out. Take it off and spray it out with carb cleaner or drop it in some degreaser solvent for a while. You should replace the gasket while you're in there, I just made a new one out of gasket paper. Let all the carb cleaner evaporate and reinstall the IACV.

 

The reason it doesn't affect hot idle is because heat from the engine warms the IACV and it stops sticking. I can't remember how the belt routing is on a normal ea82, but the squealing is either the power steering or the alternator most likely. When you start the car cold the alternator is working hard to get the battery volts up and the power steering fluid is really cold and hard to pump. When you combined that with cold belts that don't have a lot of grip you get squealing. Check the belts for proper tension, if they're tight don't make them tighter, you'll ruin your alternator bearings, replace the worn out belts.

[MR_Loyale]

Had a similar issue with my Loyale. Put a cap full of Berryman's in the iac and let it sit 5 min. Just pop off the hose and pop it back on.  I consider this a semi annual maintenance task.

[maozebong]

if youve never had a car this old, you have to "keep them running" when extremely cold if you don't have yours well maintained. 

 

if you ask me, you probably have a vacuum leak. 

[TheEmpireStrikesBack]

if youve never had a car this old, you have to "keep them running" when extremely cold if you don't have yours well maintained. 

 

if you ask me, you probably have a vacuum leak. 

But I checked my hoses and didn't see anything. But that doesn't necessarily mean anything?

[TheEmpireStrikesBack]

Had a similar issue with my Loyale. Put a cap full of Berryman's in the iac and let it sit 5 min. Just pop off the hose and pop it back on.  I consider this a semi annual maintenance task.

Could I just put it in the carburator instead? It looks pretty scary trying to take that iac off.

[DaveT]

It won't get to where it needs to be.

[DaveT]

A 92 doesn't have a carb. The iac has a hose connected that you pull off, pour the cleaner in, nothing to disassemble.

[987687]

You can try just dumping it in the IAC line. Removing the IAC isn't scary, it's 4 screws...

Edited January 28, 2016 by 987687

[TheEmpireStrikesBack]

A 92 doesn't have a carb. The iac has a hose connected that you pull off, pour the cleaner in, nothing to disassemble.

Okay, great!!! I don't have to unhook the battery or anything?

[ford'ssubaru's]

Ok,

 

Don't stay with the Dark side of the force.  If you use the Force for good it will guide you.  The Force is telling me that all things ignition related is your issue.  If you use the Force it will guide you step by step to eliminate the ery Dark side of the Force.  Use the Force MD.  It will guide you.

 

Squealing noise.  The Force tells me that it should not squeal.  If your belts are loose or glazed it could possibly not turn the alternator fast enough to generate the necessary voltage.  Weaker spark, lower voltage does create sais Yoda.  Make sure that you are generating 13.5 Vlts to 14.5 volts with all your lights on sais the Jedi master.

 

Jedi has replaced plugs and wires and battery so the Force is telling me that these are not the issue.  Awe...Low RPM?  From where else could this problem come come from????????  The CPS could create such a headache rumored from stories told on this forum long ago.  What is the CPS or EPS sais the young Luke? The Crank Position Sensor or the Engine Position Sensor is actually located on the distributor young Luke.  Different from other vehicles this is.  This needs to be carefully marked and removed.  Disassembled and cleaned.  The sensor is a notorious collector of moisture dirt and oil the Force tells me.  Clean thoroughly with electrical parts cleaner.

 

Oh Master tell me more you say?  In time young Luke.  In time.  There is ancient documentation on this forum about how to adjust your throttle stop or EPS Luke.  The Force will guide you in your journey to find it or Jezek will just post it.  This is probably why it tries to start when you pump the throttle because it needs to find itself right at the beginning. Most important step this is sais Yoda.  One could chase ones tail if your adjustments aren't correct. 

 

Uhhhhmmmmmm,  Meditation time it is..........Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

 

May the Force be with You.........\

 

 

Cheers,

[MR_Loyale]

Okay, great!!! I don't have to unhook the battery or anything?

No but the engine should be off. Just pop off the hose, plop in a small bit of cleaner like Berryman's , pop hose backnon. Wait 5 min and start. It may be hesitant to start I immediately.  Once going, iac should hold at idle. Additional treatment may be needed. 

Edited January 29, 2016 by MR_Loyale

[TheEmpireStrikesBack]

No but the engine should be off. Just pop off the hose, plop in a small bit of cleaner like Berryman's , pop hose backnon. Wait 5 min and start. It may be hesitant to start I immediately.  Once going, iac should hold at idle. Additional treatment may be needed. 

Okay, so I tried starting car again the other day and it idled just fine, started high at first like normal and then worked itself down like normal, but after a few minutes I heard that squeaking try to start up again and then the engine almost gave out for a split second. What could that be?

[MR_Loyale]

Squeaking has nothing to do with iac. Could be the idler pulley bearing.

[Len Dawg]

http://repairpal.com/engine-stalling-after-battery-replacement

[Len Dawg]

I would go back to electrical... mainly when you get it started.. check how many volts your alternator is putting out, put multimeter on 20v and increase rpm you should get 13.00 to 14.00 hopefully, that will eliminate possible alternator failure. Please let us know how it goes! Dead end threads sauck!

[TheEmpireStrikesBack]

I would go back to electrical... mainly when you get it started.. check how many volts your alternator is putting out, put multimeter on 20v and increase rpm you should get 13.00 to 14.00 hopefully, that will eliminate possible alternator failure. Please let us know how it goes! Dead end threads sauck!

Well, everything seems to be working out just fine again, except now once the engine finally idles down, you can feel the car vibrate some. Any idea what that could be?

[Craigar]

I just got my 1st "93 Loyale Wagon 3AT" a week ago and overall I LOVE IT!!! - except for problems below, and that it was running crappy under load at lower rpm (under 2500)  if I was heavy on the throttle,  Once I got that straightened out then in park I could hear and feel this very low frequency rumble ( i would gues it's 1/8th of the idle speed , or about 90 cycles per second) - that cycles in intensity about every second (or 1.5 seconds) and lessens as the engine warms up - idles at 1500 when cold for about 45 seconds. Can't feel or hear it at all when in gear/driving . Somwhere on this forum I read a proper running EA82 sounds a lot like a "cross sewing machine and a Russian agricultural machine" I have to agree, especially in park at lower rpm! MAY POST A VIDEO LATER if it picks up the sound.  Pushing about 1/2 throttle starting from 100 to about 1500 it sounds like a forklift motor, or maybe an inboard Evinrude boat motor! Above 2000 rpm IMHO, it sounds and feels better than a good running Porsche 357! , (although comparitivly  under asperated at higher rpm).
 
Here's a youtube video of how it sounds from a cold start,

<iframe id="ytplayer" type="text/html" width="640" height="390" src="http://youtube.com/watch?v=TOGm40Cj1UA?version=3" frameborder="0"/></iframe>
 
Here's how I helped the "running crappy at lower rpm (under 2500)  if I was heavy on the throttle" problem. Found a few obvious things not on par - including 2 cracks on the top of the snorkel between the air filter & throttle body - and a goood one where the 3/4 inch hose connects between the air snorkel and a part down by the base of the throttle body. put medium bead of black permatex on all of those - helped a bit.
 

 
Checked plugs, they were gapped at.065 !!! - regapped to about .040 - much better, then found out green "ignition timing setup" wires were still connected - unhooked them = much better
 
but... even way more scary is it's getting some air in the coolant that is probably bad intake manifold gaskets, etc (don't thing it's head gasket ??) and can hear the bubbles in the system especially if doing a long left turn (or going around in left handed circles) - let the games begin Edited August 5, 2016 by Craigar

[DaveT]

IF by air in the coolant, you mean continuous bubbles in the recovery bottle, that means headgasket.  Once you have them, the rate will slowly increase, until you can't really go anywhere without overheating.

 

Bad intake gasket/s suck coolant into the intake.  Causing white smoke if it's a big enough leak.  But it often is not big enough to cause smoke, but over time, cause low coolant.  If the engine gets run above normal temperature while low on coolant, the headgaskets will be compromised.  How bad and how long you can get away with running them depends on how long and how far above normal operating temperature.  Once the headgaskets are compromised, you get the steady bubbles in the coolant.

[Craigar]

I only see pretty slow/small stream of air bubbles when the coolant reservoir tank has had less then an inch air, and then if I take of the rad cap it will usually have a few inches of air, but can see fluid looking in about 2 inches down, so I add about a cup or 2 in the radiator and a cup or 2 in the reservoir tank then it all seems fine and no bubbles in the reservoir when running either warmed up or cold. Put about 80 lbs. of air in each cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke & look into rad, no change in level or bubbles. When the bubbles/fluid loss has happened (after about 30 miles of driving) it seems to run rougher at lower rpm under load/heavy throttle, and will feel like a cylinder is weak/out of balance - but smooths out in about 30 seconds. No smoke or water at the tail pipe, no oil in coolant or coolant in the oil, no fluctuation on the temp gauge - stays down pretty low about 1/4the distance from cold to hot. The tailpipe is black which made me think it was rich, but all the plugs were light grey with a slight brownish tint (and they were gaped at about.065 - re-gapped them back to about .038) 119K on the motor - and the previous owner did changed out the rad, belts and some other things - the receipt looks like it was done at a good shop.

 

Oh ya the image in the previous post was before I sealed up the rest of the cracks on that nipple - and now it really pulls good at lower rpm - but I try to be easy on it under 1500rpm cause of my experience with Volkswagens hammering rod bearings at low rpm 30 years ago.

 

Got to mention again I really love the way this car drives, handles, responds & feels - I think maybe I'm going nutz cause cause it definitely ain't "keeping up with the Jonses" (and probably would seem worse to "normal people" than my other car, a parked 95 Eldo with failing head gasket(s) and no 4th/OD gear!) and if I can keep it running at least as good as it is I'll probably keep drivin it tell I'm too old to see - although I wish it had a 4th gear too! I'm thinking of running 175/80 x 13 tires on it, instead of the stock 175/70 - it does 52mph on flatland @ 3000 rpm - and I'm in the "South bay" area of L.A. and don't do any serious hills - probably once every few months and I'd baby it or go into 2nd gear and go pretty slow. Not sure how to link up a youtube vid here, but I'll try?

 

Here's how it sounds from a cold start, did the video to let TheEmpireStrikesBack hear mine do the low freq rumble when cold http://www.youtube.com/embed/TOGm40Cj1UA

 

here it is about 20 seconds later doing 2 left hand donuts when barely warm http://www.youtube.com/embed/LBS8HEuN7QA

 

Thank You!

Edited August 2, 2016 by Craigar

[DaveT]

It's been running with low coolant. This is not good. That is a lot of air. If everything is correct with the cooling system, the amount of air should gradually reduce as it works it's way out over a handful of drive cycles. If it doesn't , there is something wrong - a slow leak, or the beginning sign of failing head gasket. Monitor the level in both the upper hose (squeeze sharply, listen for gurgles and giggle pin) and overflow before every cold start. If it runs over normal temperature while low on coolant, it will need headgaskets.

 

80 psi in the cylinder is nothing compared to what happens when the fuel air mix is set off. It will not show up in the coolant until the headgaskets are pretty well blown - I'm guessing, but by then, you won't get more than a mile or 2 before it pushes lots of coolant out the overflow.

 

Smoke in the exhaust and or coolant in the oil only happen with severely blown headgaskets.

 

You are correct to avoid lugging this engine. They are made to turn high rpms, not chug at low rpm. If I am losing speed with wot at 3000rpm, it's downshift time.

 

If the temp Guage has been staying rock solid at the normal position that's good. 3ven more reason to be diligent about keeping the coolant system full while diagnosing.

 

I've had the tiny slow bubbles stream all the way to can't go 3 miles and one with the addition of the coolant in the oil headgasket failures. None caused drivability issues or smoke.

[DaveT]

Oh, yes, air leaks on the intake will cause drivability troubles. It s running leaner than expected by the ecu.

[Craigar]

Thank You Mr. Subaru Nut! Here's 2 edits to the post above that may "shed more light".

 

 

I only see pretty slow/small stream of air bubbles when the coolant reservoir tank has had less then an inch air, and then if I take off the rad cap it will usually have a few inches of air, but can see fluid looking in about 2 inches down, so I add about a cup or 2 in the radiator and a cup or 2 in the reservoir tank then it all seems fine and no bubbles in the reservoir when running either warmed up or cold.

 

The tailpipe is black which made me think it was rich, but all the plugs were light grey with a slight brownish tint (and they were gaped at
about.065 - re-gapped them back to about .038)

 

seems to me like it could be leaking intake manifold gaskets - which leads me to want to try some "Holts RADsealer" which subaru OM had as part of their maintenance starting in 2000 for EJ engines..

 

(2000+ EJ25's and 99 Forester and Impreza RS).  It doesn't work on Phase I EJ25's at all.  Unlikely to help an EA engine.

here's a thread about it (where you had responded to to necessity of replacing ALL 7 of the coolant hoses) - and these guys are saying very rare for EA82 HG failure?

 

subaru cooling system conditioner

 

Do you think this might be "just" the intake gaskets?

[DaveT]

I have had intake gaskets fail.  Both by slow leaking, and crack / fast fail.  The new OEM gaskets from a dealer are far better than any original or aftermarket gaskets I have seen.  It would not hurt to replace them, simply due to age of the original ones on the engine.

 

To avoid trouble with stuck [and then snapped] intake bolts - run the car to normal operating temp.  Park in your work area, and immediately and carefully loosen the 6 bolts.  For really sticky ones, turning back and forth slowly creeping towards loosening.

 

Typical intake leak symptoms are coolant disappearing slowly if drawn into the intake.  I've seen an external small leak happen, and the small amount of coolant will evaporate off the block with little trace..  Bad enough to cause smoke, you will also be having major overheat due to low coolant problems, which lead to damaged head gaskets.

Disappearing coolant, little to no air in upper hose, usually is a small leak somewhere.  Level in overflow bottle slowly goes down.  CAn happen at water pump, any hose clamp, radiator, gasket.  I just had one in a radiator, the heat was drying it before an easily noticeable trace was showing.

 

Damaged headgasket, air in upper hose, eventually slow bubbles progressing to faster and faster bubbles.  Level in overflow may go down at first, but eventually more air pushes coolant out with it than can be drawn back in during the cool down cycle.  Must be watched to determine what's going on.  I don't decide headgasket fail based on 1 or 2 checks.  It's can be a week of daily checking the coolant levels / air and for external leaks depending on how bad it is.