Problems with the New Model Outback?

[jayce]

I have been putting off purchasing a new car, driving my 05 Outback with pleasure and very few problems. However, facing about $3k in repairs at 200K miles I'm thinking it may be time to pull the trigger on a new vehicle. I have been considering a certified 14 or 15 Outback. Possibly even a 13. However some of my research is showing that the complaints on these newer year models has increased dramatically over previous years.

Anyone out there who has driven one of these newer models have any opinions on this? I really can't afford the expense or the aggravation of purchasing a near new vehicle if it is not going to be relatively trouble free for the next several years. That's why I drive Subaru.

Should I just spend a few grand on my 05 at this point? I could do a lot of work to it for the 25-30K I would be spending on a newer model, but I would also still lack the more "modern" conveniences I would be getting with one.

 

[987687]

What's wrong with your car that it needs $3k in work?

 

Also what complaints are you seeing in the newer ones? Is it just whiny people complaining about things that don't matter, or actual "things are blowing up and it won't move" kind of complaints? A lot of reviews have to be taken with a grain of salt because people expect something unreasonable, or don't know how to get the best out of their product.

[1 Lucky Texan]

might depend on the nature of the repairs and whether the present car still meets your demands.

 

every car will need struts, ball joints and rotors(many older cars will get a timing belt service too) - but if the repairs seem more related to possible reliability issues, then it may be time to shop for a replacement.

Edited January 27, 2016 by 1 Lucky Texan

[mikec03]

The only worrying thing about the 13-15's is oil consumption.  I kind of think that subaru has solved that by the 15 model year.

[jayce]

Thanks all, it is the oil consumption problem/complaint that worries me. I feel like anything related to the motor is a huge red flag for me. Took my vehicle in for alignment, was told it needs both front and rear "rocker arms?" upper on one and lower on the other, can't recall which at this point. So that's around $1200. Then they said the rack and pinion is leaking so about 1200 to fix that. This is what really worries me, they said there appeared to be a leak in the transmission, could just be the filter and need a service but if not, then it could need a seal or pan. They did not quote me what that would cost if it were in fact the case. I also started noticing intermittent problems with a/c this fall similar to what I experienced in the past when it required a new compressor to fix, so if that's the case add another 2500 for an ac system (yikes). Oh and the front seat will not move forward, probably needs a switch so around 100 bucks for that.

Soooo, best case scenario looking at around 2400-2500 for "rocker arms? hope I'm getting that right" and rack and pinion. Add to that who knows what if transmission has problems, another possible 2500 for a/c and then a couple hundred for incidentals. I have loved driving my car, and really prefer the body style pre-09. Another reason I have not looked at newer vehicles, just don't like the new body style. However I'm starting to wonder if potential repairs that would get me almost a third of the way to a vehicle with under 30K miles and drivetrain warranty might be the way to go. Then again for 20K which is less than I would pay for a late model pre-owned, I could practically rebuild my 05 I assume. The scale for me just keeps moving back and forth, not sure what to do. What would you do?

I would really like leather seats and a back up camera, as well as hands free phone in my car. So those are potential reasons to go for a newer OB, other than that, I'm happy with the 05.

Can't tell you how much I am struggling with this decision.

[1 Lucky Texan]

are those prices from a dealer?

 

from the sound of it, you should pay a different (preferably independent mechanic) shop to evaluate the car. have them break it down into what MUST be done(timing belt service), what you can save up for(while not recommended, you can ride on worn-out shocks for a long time), and what you can live with (like a minor fluid drip)


many people have been sold a/c compressors when they just need some o-rings - not saying you have been or will be ripped-off by the present shop, but for the amount of money involved, you may be surprised at the difference in price. For instance, even IF the rack needs replacement, a good used unit from a wreck will be much cheaper than a new one. Subaru steering racks are robust and I rarely read about failures so , a low miles used unit should be fine.

Edited January 27, 2016 by 1 Lucky Texan

[jayce]

1 Lucky Texan,

Thanks for the advice, I will probably have it looked at at an independent. It was at the dealer. However, my luck with independents has been pretty poor with this car. It seems every time they do something, something comes back broken or not done correctly and I end up back at the dealer to have the new problem corrected.

One other issue, this reminded me of. I just had new brakes put on at an independent, then my cruise control quit working. Will come on, then with any breaking by the vehicle such as on a hill, it deactivates, flashes, will not come back on until I shut off the vehicle. Dealer said they could not replicate problem even though it happens literally every time I drive within 5 minutes of setting cruise. So no idea what the problem is there that they can't replicate, but something else that needs to be fixed.

Timing belt was done at 150K so I'm good on that one. They say without the rocker arms they can not align the car, and it is showing inconsistent tire wear so the alignment has to be done. I figure I can just pour power steering fluid in for a while to avoid 1200 work on rack and pinion, or would that be a bad idea. It hasn't given me any issues other than needing fluid maybe once every 6 months, so I'm inclined to just not do that work.

When the compressor was replaced before it was under warranty so I didn't have to pay for it and believe me, the dealer tried every possible remedy including saying they couldn't replicate problem before finally breaking down and doing it, so I'm sure that was the only fix at that time. Same symptom this time and in Central Texas there really is no time of year I can be without a/c.

If I could find an independent I felt I could trust, I would love to have them take a look at it. The dealer currently has it waiting on an airbag recall replacement, once that's done I can drive it home. I drove it to them so no reason to feel like it can't be driven, but if I am going to get something else, I'd rather just do the research, decide what I want, find it and not drag it out. Just can't decide for sure what to do.

Does anyone know anything about after market back up cameras or radios that would enable me to be hands free with my phone in the car. If I thought I could get that done reasonably, it might make keeping it more attractive.

Also, at 200K miles, how likely is it that I might experience engine problems soon?

Thanks for all the experience and insight.

[mikec03]

You should go to an indy shop, BUT only one that has repaired a lot of subarus.  A good question to ask an indy shop is "how many subaru HG's have you replaced.  If it's a decent subaru shop, they have to have done 40-50+.

 

Another consideration is that your HG may not last much longer.  You have 50K on it.  Some posters have had problems with dealership or indy Hg's replacements.  Of course, maybe your dealership is expensive but does excellent repairs?   But that's not the way to bet.  As a side comment, I have 15K on my 02 HG replacement, and I would be ticked pink if I get 50K.

 

Also, I bought a 14, but I didn't like the style either.  I try not to look at the outside. 

[jayce]

You should go to an indy shop, BUT only one that has repaired a lot of subarus.  A good question to ask an indy shop is "how many subaru HG's have you replaced.  If it's a decent subaru shop, they have to have done 40-50+. 

 

Trouble here is I'm not sure I can find an indy that would meet that requirement. Thought I found a good one, seem to work on a lot of subaru's had them rebuild an engine in a BAJA and they returned it to me using oil. So now not sure I trust them either.

 

 

Another consideration is that your HG may not last much longer.  You have 50K on it. 

 

I'm confused by this. I guess my HG has more like 198K on it as I've never had it replaced. Do you know something I don't?

[1 Lucky Texan]

if no one here has a suggestion, you could ask here;http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=29

 

user ajracerfan over their seems fairly active and you might personal mail him thru the Forum - he is in Buda TX.

 

good luck (I know how hard it is to find good shops for soobs.  around here, my closest dealer is 17 miles away and based on experience with my MIL's Forester, they are a joke. )

Edited January 27, 2016 by 1 Lucky Texan

[mikec03]

 

my HG has more like 198K on it as I've never had it replaced

Oops.  I misread your previous post.  I wonder if 198K on a 00-09 NA engine without a HG replacement is a record?  

Edited January 27, 2016 by mikec03

[jayce]

Oops.  I misread your previous post.  I wonder if 198K on a 00-09 NA engine without a HG replacement is a record?  

I've often wondered myself how I've gotten that lucky. The fact is that it has always consumed a little oil. I bought it CPO with about 30K miles on it. I noticed this and when I inquired they blew me off. That said, it has never used any more than it did when I got it and it's never used a lot. I sometimes have to top it off a little between oil changes if I go over 4K miles. (I use synthetic oil, so sometimes I push the limits), but really no obvious HG problems. Fingers crossed. Part of me feels like if it's lasted this long, it will probably continue to be fine. Part of me feels like I'm living on borrowed time. Decisions, decisions.

[jayce]

if no one here has a suggestion, you could ask here;http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=29

 

user ajracerfan over their seems fairly active and you might personal mail him thru the Forum - he is in Buda TX.

 

good luck (I know how hard it is to find good shops for soobs.  around here, my closest dealer is 17 miles away and based on experience with my MIL's Forester, they are a joke. )

Thanks, I'll check that out. My closest dealer is 45 miles, one way. Which sucks, but with the luck I've had with indy shops, for anything major I bite the bullet and go, for anything "minor" where I don't, I generally regret it and wish I had.

[Numbchux]

Experience varies dealer-to-dealer. But Subaru is replacing short blocks on cars effected with the oil consumption problem. We just did one that had 90k miles on it. Zero cost to the customer (extreme case...but still a good example).

 

And those were due to a bad batch of piston rings. The effected cars had oil consumption issues before the first oil change, it's not something that pops up later. And all but the 2012 Impreza have low oil sensors, so a warning light will come on, which greatly reduces the chances that the cars were driven with dangerously low oil.

 

 

It is an issue, and we're probably fixing one car a week here

 

 

 

That said, I'd definitely get a second opinion on your 05. I'm assuming they're talking about Control Arms. That seems really strange to me, I would assume that it's because of failing bushings, but the bushings can be replaced individually, it's more labor, but considerably less parts cost. IMO, the only reason to replace an entire control arm, is structural failure (rust or impact).

 

If the steering rack is leaking (not unheard-of, or even unlikely, especially with that many miles). There really isn't a good option other than replacing it. Some money can be saved on parts (although, for $1200 installed, I'm assuming that's with a remanufactured rack), but it's a fairly big job to replace it. And, it will require an alignment afterward....

 

 

 

There are definitely dozens, if not hundreds, of aftermarket options for backup camera and bluetooth integration. Some would require a new radio, some integrate into the original one.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Numbchux

[jayce]

Thanks for all the responses. Still trying to decide what to do. I've started considering the CPO Outbacks, I think maybe the 2015's look a little better than the previous gen. Maybe. Maybe I just want them to.

My husband is trying to get me to settle on a Honda Odyessey. Maybe the most depressing vehicle I have ever drove, but the CPO Outbacks are giving me sticker shock.

Any ideas out there what it would likely cost if my a/c is going out? I feel like that is the big unknown that might potentially tip the scales in the direction of a new purchase vs. repairing my current OB. I guess once you start talking about spending upwards of 5k in a single chunk, it starts to feel like it makes less sense.

Also, what are the odds of major engine trouble, assuming I am not seeing any obvious symptoms of an engine problem?

Thanks for all the input.

[ThosL]

There are usually lots of economical solutions; don't panic, get second and third opinions, check around for a hungrier shop will to work for less that may let you provide the parts.  Recently I got a crazy estimate upwards of $2000 for front end work.  I got the job done for under $350 all told.

[AdventureSubaru]

2010-2012 outbacks in my opinion are the way to go until we see what hashes out over longer time with the new motors. These still incorporate the EJ25 motor but the head gasket issue seems resolved to the point that their reliability is on par with the EJ22 from the 1990s - a motor that will last 300,000 miles and more without head gasket issues or trouble beyond valve cover gaskets etc. My wife drives a 2011 Premium which we got for an excellent price with only 60,000 miles on it. These do still run a timing belt which needs to be replaced at the ordinary intervals, but otherwise would be a superior motor in my book as the newer motors are already a part of a class action suit and as a group have not been out there and driving long enough to see repeated 300,000 mile odometers and happy owners.

 

I'll also echo what's been said on here. Doing extra leg work and research will save you $$$ on the cost of repair and how much needs replacing. Finding a good used rack for $200. or an aftermarket unit from rockauto and paying a good mechanic to install it is way better than dealer pricing. The general rule with dealers is - you pay top dollar for OEM parts (Which is good quality but not as necessary when we're talking car with 200k and 10 or 20 years old. And you pay top dollar for labor regardless of experience - many dealers will hire techs right out of school, so you're paying highest labor price for a kid who's still learning on your car. Nothing wrong with that, but not ideal as a consumer.

 

Many folks (myself included in years past) are victims of our own ignorance. If we know little or nothing about our cars, we're at the mercy of whatever people tell us about them - both in needs and cost. This allows price hikes everywhere and plenty of rip off mechanics and even illegal activity. Read up on the issues, do some research, call around, get multiple opinions and make the most informed decisions possible.

[mikec03]

 

2010-2012 outbacks in my opinion are the way to go

 

I once thought that way too.  But I'm seeing too many failures on the HG Log like the following. 

 

Subaru model: Outback Limited Edition Canadian model

Year: 2011

Engine Size: 2.5

Mileage: 98,500ish km (58,800 miles)

[AdventureSubaru]

Yeah. I wish there were a good way to see the ratio of failures/cars. These outbacks are popular and I probably see 5 of them for every phase 1 EJ22 on the road, yet the head gasket issues seem few and far between for as many of them are out there. When searching for my wife's outback we saw a dozen of them at 300k+ and many more well over 200k.

 

Every Subaru motor has a percentage of head gasket issues. This 2010-2012 seems to be at the top in percentage (By my observation and a few others) certainly wont be perfect. My point is, there's good reason to expect longer life out of this generation than the 10 years prior (IMHO) and not yet enough time to suggest that the 2013 would be any better (And so far carrying the brand of a class action suit alongside.) I do love the oil filter location though. Far easier than reaching into the dragons nest of the 2010-2012