Outback/Baja curiosity, a towing question

[Arvex]

A few months back, I bought myself a Subaru SVX to fix up and started wondering if I needed to invest in something bigger than I would normally be comfortable with driving to tow it (should it ever be necessary. Hoping I never do need to.) Then I remembered the old, hilarious, image of a Subaru Outback towing another Outback, parked out back behind an Outback Steakhouse and it got me wondering. Would an Outback or Baja be suitable? I have also been on the fence about trading my Jetta for an Outback or Baja for a while since its automatic transmission is slowly dying and the manual swap I was planning may have just gotten a bit more complicated.

 

I'm turning here for help because my attempt at research is getting me a ton of mixed numbers ranging anywhere from 2000 to 3900 pounds.

 

What I am curious about is if a third generation Outback with the H6* or a Baja can tow an SVX (~3800 pounds) on a trailer or what level of modification would be necessary to facilitate such a towing capacity.

 

Would I need to improve the engine power and braking ability to handle towing a ~3800 pound vehicle? Or should it be able to handle it in stock form as long as I use a trailer with overrun brakes?

 

 

 

*Not sure how much it affects towing, but the H6 Outbacks are automatic only, I believe.

[Numbchux]

That's one thing for a very short emergency tow, but please don't plan on it!

 

 

Right out of the Subaru 2003 Outback accessory catalog, the car is rated for 2000 lb. In 2005, the H6 models went to 3000 lb, and the Tribecas had an accessory transmission cooler available that brought it to 3500.

 

Now, I have seen several hitches for 00-04 Outbacks that are rated for 3500 (the hitch....not the car), but they're all 1 1/4" receivers.

 

I put an auxiliary transmission cooler on the 2004 Outback I'm repairing to be my wife's daily driver, because we will likely push it a little hard with bikes on the roof, and a boat, and such. But I wouldn't even consider towing a car trailer.

 

 

An SVX weighs close to 4000lbs, and figure another 2000 or so for a steel trailer (Uhaul trailers weigh 2210). Featherlight Aluminum trailers are more like 1300....but still, you're well over 5000.

 

 

You could go with a dolly, which only weighs a few hundred pounds, but the concern there is the tongue weight. Under braking, the force of the car being towed is above the centerline of the wheels on the dolly, which turns all that force into downward force on the tongue. I rented a dolly from a private rental yard to tow my Celica home when I bought it. They made me sign a waiver to do it with a 3500/350 hitch, even though I was about 1000 lb under the curb weight rating of the equipment, that want a minimum of 500lb tongue weight rating. Also, you'd have to remove the driveshaft of the SVX....

[kamesama980]

Bajas are rated to tow 1000lbs without trailer brakes. Automatics are rated to tow 2000lbs with trailer brakes, manuals: 2400lbs. Toyota used a Tundra to pull the space shuttle: physically capable but not rated or suggested. NO modification will change the tow rating however they can make it safer to tow anything.

 

I'll copy a blurb I posted on another forum recently asking about towing and what the limiting factor is:

 

 

As this is a public space, I'll preface this by saying I don't advocate disobeying the stated limits of the vehicle.

 

Typically, tow rating is the extra rear axle weight minus leverage from the distance of the hitch to the axle. In cases like ours where there are two ratings for braked and unbraked trailers, there is a concern for brake longevity while towing but how big a problem it is depends on where and how you tow. Towing 500lbs might end badly up and down hills in traffic. Towing 3klbs without brakes might go well with low speeds through Kansas.

 

That being said, towing ratings are VERY subjective. The driver matters as much or more than the vehicle (there are plenty of people that can't manage pushing a shopping cart). Also, it depends on how the rating is derived: The Europeans frequently tow a lot more than we in the US because of how they rate the vehicles: less tongue weight (more tendancy to sway but more trailer for the same axle weight ratings) but lower speed limits while towing (which reduces tendency to sway). We in the US tend to ignore common sense and drive 90mph towing anything so to reduce tendency to sway we run a lot higher tongue weight, so the same axle weight rating gets a much lower trailer total weight.

 

That and trailer tire speed ratings are why my lil' 2800lb toyota truck rated to tow 3500lbs (with or w/o brakes) that may or may not have been pulling ~6klbs (yes, it did have brakes) @ 60mph was passed by full-size trucks pulling <3klb trailers only to pass them a few hrs later sideways in the ditch. Side note, when I first left on that trip, I didn't have enough tongue weight trailer tried telling me where to go about 45mph so I pulled over, repacked for more tongue weight, and was good to somewhere north of 70.

 

Again I don't advocate it, just pointing out that tow ratings are determined as much by marketing, lawyers, and insurance agents as physics. If you doubt it, do some reading on the fiasco of full-size pickup tow ratings that's come to light in the last few years.

[idosubaru]

subaru's are not good dedicated tow vehicles.  

 

they're simply undersized.  if you've ever been in an emergency situation while towing a large load - you'll know what a difference size makes when seeing what pushing and loosing control of a large load feels like (someone pulling in front and slamming on the brakes, a deer, etc) - it's another level of scary than just slamming on brakes and feeling the ABS kick in.  a SUbaru woudl never perform in a situation like that - they're simply too small and will get pushed like a piece of paper.  i've had that happen in my truck - and it's plain scary (though so far avoided accidents each time), if that happened in a Subaru the outcome would have been different. 

 

that being said, i tow with them all the time - large boats and other cars (i've towed outbacks with outbacks) over the tow limits - it's a really bad idea unless it's for short distances, you can time it out at night/low traffic/light grades/etc.

with a car trailer and car - definitely a bad idea.  

 

you're in ohio so it's flat and super easy cake walk to tow compared to long haul or mountainous terrain.  i can literally move a huge 16 foot trailer by hand in a flat parking lot.  that same trailer i can't move 1 foot up even a nearly imperceptible incline.  people often don't realize how much grades impact towing. 

 

Suabru's consistently have cooling issues from people towing at close to or over the limits, big loads, up grades and 95+ high humidity.  i've towed multiple outbacks in situations like that - all with the same response - overheating.  the cooling systems simply aren't up to that task. 

 

but not everyone is towing in a high humidity, 95+ degree summer climate, and 7% grades at interstate speeds or steeper local twisty mountain grades.  

 

"tow limits" and owners manuals fall way short in signifying these basic quanfitiable physical properties that have a direct impact on a vehicle's performance. 

 

what you can "get away with" and what is safe for the vehicle and other people are a big difference. 

[kamesama980]

subaru's are not good dedicated tow vehicles.  

...

 

"tow limits" and owners manuals fall way short in signifying these basic quanfitiable physical properties that have a direct impact on a vehicle's performance. 

 

what you can "get away with" and what is safe for the vehicle and other people are a big difference. 

Absolutely agree, see my comment above about it being written by lawyers, marketing, and insurance companies. They need an arbitrary number to talk about and compare not a realistic number that factors in driver ability.

 

 

 

The first time my little 115hp toyota pickup may or may not have pulled ~6k was also over 100f and the truck had a leaky radiator. I had the heat on the last hour or 2 (of an 8 hr drive) to keep the temps stable and when we got there, my wife (who had been driving her air-conditioned car) had the gumption to complain about the weather.

 

My best case story of towing was putting ~1500lbs of car parts in my S10 on the interstate at WOT (just to maintain 70 and keep up with the people that knew where we were going...this was the days before every phone had google maps) for an hour and a half. it had the iron duke 2.5l I4 and I swapped in a celica supra radiator. so the 90hp truck with about 3 sqft of grill had a radiator meant for 160hp and 4 sqin of grill.

[ccrinc]

www.cars101.com is your friend.

 

The towing capacity for every Subaru model and year is listed there.  Find your model, scroll down to specs and it's in the list under towing.

 

Emily

[nipper]

If your looking to buy something for tow duty, you can do much better with a good old fashioed v-8. If its for ocassional towing a sooby wit an automatic can do it with a tranny cooler and gauge and upgraded brakes 

[Arvex]

Thank you for the responses. I believe that answers all of my questions very well.

 

The reason I was asking was because I'm planning to take the SVX to a shop about three hours away for some custom fabrication work later this year and don't know how long it would be up there. I figure that if I tow it up there, I can spend time with family and friends in the area and take up a guest room while I wait or drive back home and pick it up later if it takes longer and work starts calling.

 

I'm somewhat doubtful as to the 2004 and earlier Outbacks now, given what I've read. It looks like a 2005 or newer could handle it, one with the H6 more likely than not.

 

I will keep cooling upgrades in mind if I do this.

[idosubaru]

ah - if you're just doing it twice - to get the car there and back.  that's not a big deal. 

 

if you were making 500 mile road trips every month - then it sounds like a bad idea. 

 

correct - H6's all have automatics, 1988-1991 XT6's are the only stock Subaru 6 cylinders with manual transmissions (my daily driver is one of those)

 

there's no appreciable difference between 00-04 and 05-09 outbacks in terms of towing. 

the H6's can overheat towing heavy loads in summer and steep grades.  seen multiple H6's do it.  the extra power is nice - but the biggest weakness remains - undersized and cooling. but you sound like you got that noted to pay attention and address if needed. 

 

if it's flat and you're not towing in 95+ temps you'll likely not have any issues anyway. 

[Arvex]

I've read of people talking about the transmission affecting towing ability, but they don't say which way it goes. They say it in such a way that suggests I'm supposed to know which way it affects it.

 

The route in question is flat as can be. The only real hills/slopes are the on and off ramps from the highways.

 

Common sense tells me the automatic transmissions can't tow as much because of the general consensus among car enthusiasts that automatics are junk. At the same time I'm not very experienced in driving manual, so towing with manual seems a bad idea for me. I know how to operate manual, but my overall driving experience in the year since my friend taught me is probably five hours of driving.

[nipper]

Its simple, its heat. What may seem flat to uou still requires more work by the transmission and internal friction to shift.

 

Actually Autos are better at towing then manuals as you dont have a clutch. Autos multiply torque. If you get a manual with a granny gear its better for towing. Modern automatics will shut off a cylinder or two right at the shift to reduce strain on the clutches. 

 

Automatics are not junk, most car enthusiast opinions are junk as they are holding onto 20-30-40 year old theories. Also towing in general requires not using OD D4. In a stick the car lugs you know to downshift, in an auto it hunts and wears out fast, and thats drivers error. Use D3 and slow down a tad.

Edited April 2, 2016 by nipper

[Arvex]

That makes sense to me, actually. So, an automatic Outback would be a wise choice.

 

EDIT: Which means the EZ30 is an option now.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Arvex

[Bushwick]

You'd be better off buying an older 1990's Ford/Chevy work truck with 2WD and auto (be sure to check the trans fluid as GM autos from the era failed constantly around 80k miles). Get a simple, bare-bones truck for $1500-$2k. You know the type, manual crank windows, rubber floor,-basic. Most already have a class 3 hitch. Minor towing, factory brakes will suffice. If it doesn't have a trans cooler, it'll need one. They run $45-100 and look like mini radiators. Very simple and easy to run one in tandem with the factory radiator cooler.

 

I used to tow 750 pound dolly on my 96' Mark VIII and pulled everything from MVP minivans to full-size Chevy vans to even a couple extended cab F150's through the hills of western PA on the interstate and old state highways. That car weighed roughly 3800 pounds factory, and was over 4100 with me, tools, hitch, etc. + 750 for dolly + 3k to 5500+ pounds on the dolly. Think was ultra stable though it had air bags. Got plenty of WTH moments passing the trucks so a decent truck should be similar.

[idosubaru]

I like auto's for towing, they're great to tow with and many people prefer them. 

 

manuals are nice in some situations/driving/shifting/grades/loads.

 

but auto's shine for being smoother, and better control with fine movements like lining up, off road, getting/backing into/pulling out of tight spaces and areas, like pulling boats out of challenging boat ramps - an auto is nice on slick, steep, wonky, falling apart, boat ramps for all that same reasons listed earlier- which get exaccerbated on a boat ramp.

[idosubaru]

 because of the general consensus among car enthusiasts that automatics are junk

 

that is slowly changing.  granted in part because americans are tending towards automatics. but there are some practical indicators too - easy maintenance - no expensive clutch work needed, manuals have enough main and input shaft bearing and synchro and slave cylinder issues that i'm not sure they can be considered "more reliable" any more. better track times and MPG but that's not always a huge difference on average daily drivers so the cost to beneift ratio isn't as clear cut as it used to be. 

[nipper]

And computers. Computers have made it so Autos can now take a beating and last the life of the car. The torque unloading at the time of the shifting (you dont feel it as a driver) has made automatics as reliable and almost as fast as manuals. 

 

But I am holding my opinion on anything more then a 5sp auto.

[kamesama980]

The lack of a clutch being better for towing is driver preference. I have towed (a bit (like almost double) over the rating) with a manual several times and it's just fine if you know how to drive it. sort of like longevity of the clutch without towing: it's all up to the driver. the limitation of autos is HEAT: the torque converter heats up the fluid a lot and hot trans fluid = getting a new transmission. The limitation of a manual towing is the driver's ability to take off and shift without being stupid and roasting the clutch.

Mechanically, manual > auto for towing.

User-friendlyness, auto > manual for people that prefer it.

 

torque unloading on shifting does not improve the acceleration of a car and abso-freaking-lutely can be felt by an attentive driver but certainly does prolong the life of the clutch packs and driveline. Computers can help prevent damage from some driver action but don't increase the physical capabilities of the transmission (IE the computer won't let you neutral drop it or if you are towing too much, it'll go into limp-mode when it gets hot rather than roasting the trans). Computers prevent the beating from reaching the trans, they don't let the trans survive a beating better.

 

As for the many-speed autos coming out now...just get a CVT. 5 or 6 speeds seems to be the sweet spot, auto or manual. that gives you a start-moving gear, a highway cruising gear, and 3-4 acceleration gears. More than that is well into the realm of diminishing returns, financial or reliability (parts count).

 

Both autos and manuals reliability (other than a few bad apples) are into the realm of user treatment rather than mechanicals. as for the economy, autos have caught up because with more gears they're giving them MUCH taller top gears without making the ratios too wide or the first gears too tall. case and point: new miata could compare different models side by side. 6sp manual vs 6 sp auto the auto had shorter 1st and taller 6th and got the same MPG and similar acceleration on paper. manufacturers give most manuals too-tall top gears because most people (in USA) that do drive stick can't downshift for crap and thus want to be able to pass without downshifting. my baja's 4th gear synchro is roasted because the PO sucked at downshifting. Manuals are also harder to get to pass emissions due to the unpredictable and transient nature of the driver. With an auto you can always program in the possible combinations of gearing, throttle, etc and since the computer controls everything, you can't leave the pre-programmed envelope. With a manual, the best the computer can do is guess whether you're upshifting, downshifting, and how many gears. (I hear about it since I work in engine R&D). That's (one of several reasions) why I sold my '12 Frontier for an '03 Baja: I can move the throttle plate with my foot faster than the electronic throttle body motor. Yes, some manufacturers are better than others (less laggy) but all lag some.