Possible overheat issue?

[cbenson92]

Hello everyone. I am a first time Subaru owner. And could really use some help/advice!

 

I recently purchased a Subaru forester , 1998. The car has 104,000 miles on it currently. Here's my issue.

 

When you start the car, the car will idle at a perfect normal temperature and not budge.

 

When you drive the. Car, (I drive 35 miles one way to work) and then come to an idle for a longer period of time(10 minutes) or put it in park and idle, the temp gage goes clear up to maybe the second line closest to the H. I have never seen it go the H or in the red but it lingers very close. What do you guys think could be causing this?

[Rooster2]

Welcome Newbie. You have come to a good website to ask questions about your Subie. Nice to meet you.

 

Your Forester has the 2.5 phase 1 motor, which has a reputation of developing bad head gaskets, which cause over heating. Before considering bad head gaskets, I suggest you look at your radiator to see if it is full of coolant. A low rad level can cause over heating after running, then idling. You may also want to see if your rad fans turn on when motor is running, especially when you see temp gauge rising.

 

Check to see if you have any coolant leaks causing spots on your driveway or garage floor. That could indicate a leaking coolant hose from the radiator, or, heater hose. Also, a bad water pump will cause a coolant leak.

 

As a side bar, check the over flow container for the radiator. If you see bubbles rising up from the bottom of the over flow, then you have an indication that the head gaskets are a problem.Be sure you have sufficient coolant in the over flow container, so you can see bubbles easily.

 

Let us know what you find out.

[ThosL]

Excellent points; a clogged radiator as well as other cooling dysfunctions can cause the problem as can the head gasket.  Mechanics are quick to jump to the blown head gasket diagnostic as the percentage of them going is very high.

 

Good luck and read the many threads on overheating.

[cbenson92]

So here's my findings thus far. I talked to a mechanic at work today about same issue, he said once it starts getting hot, put it in neutral and rev it to 1.5 to 2k and see how t reacts, I did so when it started to heat after driving and idling, and it cooled off immediately.

 

I also checked my resovoir which is overfilled by previous owner and caught the slightest of bubbles.

 

Have no leaks anywhere. Oil is clean with no signs of any other fluids mixing.

 

Could this be ....

1) clogged radiator?

2) waterpumps?

3) bad thermostat?

 

I am starting with the thermostat tomorrow . Hope something helps. "Fingers crossed" a soon to be father and a volunteer firefighter needs a reliable vehicle ! Haha

[AdventureSubaru]

If you know that the coolant is full and is not in the process of being "burped" (air in the system) then the bubbles in the overflow are a sure sign of head gaskets failing. The fluids don't mix on subarus. When the head gaskets fail, exhaust gases get pushed into the coolant. (bubbles) Double check on coolant levels and bubbles. Rev the motor while looking in the overflow as it will make bubbles more obvious. If it's bubbling like a slow fish tank, you have head gasket troubles,

 

Assuming it is confirmed failing head gaskets - This is bad news and good news. If this were a 1999 or newer you would have bigger issues/expenses in fixing it. Since it's a 1998 with a phase 1 motor you can install a good used 1990-1998 EJ22 motor. Conventional wisdom  says that this is far superior to fixing the existing motor.

 

You can readily find EJ22 motors for about $500 or less. I paid $150. for my last one. It takes a solid day to swap it in. But that motor is the best subaru ever made. The 90-96 are non interference. You sacrifice a few horsepower for a motor that will go 300 and 400k if you keep up on fluids and such. On the other side of the cost/hassle of the motor swap you will have the most dependable forester on the road.

 

If you haven't done a motor swap on one of these, I can talk you through it. It takes a little while but takes only basic tools. I make a cherry picker out of some 2x4s and a $25. come along.

[Rooster2]

Even if it turns out to be the head gaskets as the culprit, I would not give up on your 2.5 motor with 104K miles on the odo. It sounds like it has not been over heated at this point, so no aluminum parts warpage, or lower connecting rod bearing damage. Just for reference, I have the same motor in my 99 OB. HGs went bad at 190K. After repairs,it is now 5 years later, and at 233K on the odo, the motor still runs good with no issues. Through the years, Subaru improved the design of their HGs for this motor. I expect to get at least 300K miles, maybe more.

[Rooster2]

So here's my findings thus far. I talked to a mechanic at work today about same issue, he said once it starts getting hot, put it in neutral and rev it to 1.5 to 2k and see how t reacts, I did so when it started to heat after driving and idling, and it cooled off immediately.

 

I also checked my resovoir which is overfilled by previous owner and caught the slightest of bubbles.

 

Have no leaks anywhere. Oil is clean with no signs of any other fluids mixing.

 

Could this be ....

1) clogged radiator?

2) waterpumps?

3) bad thermostat?

 

I am starting with the thermostat tomorrow . Hope something helps. "Fingers crossed" a soon to be father and a volunteer firefighter needs a reliable vehicle ! Haha

If you replace the thermostat, highly recommend you replace with a quality thermostat. The "cheapies" don't work well in a Subie, and can cause over heating. It is best to go with Subaru OEM thermostat of known good quality.

 

I never try to just throw parts at a car to see if if it fixes a problem. However, the radiator is old, and may be clogged, or maybe not. I don't know of any way to check a radiator for clogged passage ways, that inhibit cooling.  It is good to know that replacement radiators can be bought on line for about $100. It is an easy install.

[idosubaru]

i'm guessing headgaskets or possibly trapped air (burping). 

 

*** when it runs hot turn the cabin heat on high for a few minutes - does the air start out hot then cool down after a minute or three?

 

it's not the water pump.  subaru water pump failure is nearly impossilbe. leaking water pump gasket or weep hole happens rarely, but you're not indicating any leaks.  subaru water pump impellers don't fail to the point they don't push fluids.  they're just blades that go around and around.  as long as the car didn't sit in salt for a year those blades didn't rust away. 

 

thermostat is a slight possibility.  

 

check the *radiator* coolant level, not the overflow tank.  that's the most imperative, overflow is not indicative of radiator coolant level which is the engines source for cooling. 

 

I also checked my resovoir which is overfilled by previous owner and caught the slightest of bubbles.
 

 

 

Why do you say it was "overfilled by previous owner"?   Just because it's high does not mean it was overfilled by someone unless you saw them poor it in. 

 

More than likely the engine overheated and pushed excessive coolant into the overflow tank which never got sucked back into the engine.

[DaveT]

+1 check the coolant IN the radiator. It is typical of the leaking headgasket to push coolant into the overflow tank. Since new air is added constantly while running, the coolant does not get sucked back into the radiator during cool down when the engine is off. Running the engine while low on coolant makes the headgaskets fail more, if the temp gauge shows above normal temp.

[AdventureSubaru]

Even if it turns out to be the head gaskets as the culprit, I would not give up on your 2.5 motor with 104K miles on the odo. It sounds like it has not been over heated at this point, so no aluminum parts warpage, or lower connecting rod bearing damage. Just for reference, I have the same motor in my 99 OB. HGs went bad at 190K. After repairs,it is now 5 years later, and at 233K on the odo, the motor still runs good with no issues. Through the years, Subaru improved the design of their HGs for this motor. I expect to get at least 300K miles, maybe more.

 

No doubt there can be a lot of miles left on the motor if gaskets are done. It's the low cost and low labor that makes the 2.2 a desirable option. Especially if the labor is paid instead of DIY.

 

2.5 repair you'll pay $300 for good head gaskets + resurfacing. And shop rates will be $1000-$1500 usually.

 

2.2 you'll pay $300 for the motor and $500 for a remove and reinstall.

 

In my opinion the 2.2 has a higher likelyhood of outlasting the 2.5 still and at a cheaper price. If the labor is your own it's about equal expenditure but a few more hours work.

 

Both are good options and there are no guarantees either way. These 2.5 motors sometimes have recurring issues even after head gaskets are done. And there's little prior history that comes with a used 2.2

 

Either option will carry some risk, but either option will likely have you back on the road for another 100,000 miles

[ThosL]

I'd try to get it properly diagnosed.  After using a bunch of head gasket repair in a bottle products, I flushed out the coolant system with white wine vinegar, got a gallon at the market for a few bucks and then flushed it with water after running it for a while.

[Rooster2]

I'd try to get it properly diagnosed.  After using a bunch of head gasket repair in a bottle products, I flushed out the coolant system with white wine vinegar, got a gallon at the market for a few bucks and then flushed it with water after running it for a while.

Using " head gasket repair in a bottle products," won't work to fix a blown HG in a Subaru, EJ 25, phase l, used model years 96-99. The situation is that the Subaru pistons actually protude slightly out of the block at top dead center. So, Subaru used an extra thick Head Gasket. Eventually, the head gasket breaks down over time and miles to allow exhaust gases into the cooling system, which causes the over heating. No repair from a bottle can ever fix this.

[AdventureSubaru]

Yeah. Those fixes in a can rarely work to begin with. For a subaru head gasket they are a complete waste of time and $$$

 

And in this case a proper diagnosis IS to ensure the system is burped and check again for bubbles in the overflow. No sense paying someone to tell you what can already be seen with you own eyes. A large reason this forum exists is to give or get sound advice and information from those of us who know and love these cars. Sort of defeats the purpose when a person is seeking information and your advice is to tell them to take it in and have someone else look at it. Head gaskets can be confirmed in a driveway no problem most of the time. Especially on these older Ej25s.

 

Respectfully, if you don't have something to add to the conversation, keep reading as the discussion develops. You'll learn a lot on here and in a few years time, you'll be one of the folks with good info to share.

Edited April 20, 2016 by AdventureSubaru

[ThosL]

Since there are a lot of false diagnoses, even by mechanics, eliminating all the possible causes for overheating is vital.  I have seen so much intimidating or heavy handed bad advice over the years on what can and cannot be done I could write a book about it.  Many so called experts give bad advice.  Those who really know Subarus as in a mechanic that works on them every day at a brick and mortar store can get to the bottom of a problem much faster than a chat forum.  I have seen many experienced people on this and other forums say that a given job is easy when it is anything but.

[AdventureSubaru]

You're right that "easy" is subjective. And free advice is often worth what you pay for.

 

In the case of recognizing exhaust bubbles in a radiator overflow though, it's already in the books. Exhaust gases pushed into the coolant = head gasket leak. This by anyone willing to pop the overflow cover and rev a motor and check for bubbles is likely considered "easy" If the OP is having difficulty with it, or doubts the knowledge shared on here, they are welcome to spend the $$$ to have someone look at it and tell them what we are telling them.

 

But I, and others, are willing to take the time to share what is pretty common knowledge on our part to hopefully save the OP some time and $$$ to diagnose and repair their car.

 

This is how I learned what I know. I started out with my first car and researched how to change oil and brake pads. This forum and others provided information that proved itself time and again. I went from completely ignorant about cars to being able to swap any part, do head gasket jobs, basic bodywork etc. I'm a jack of all Subaru trades now and never had any formal training. Just asked questions and followed advice. Lots of others do the same on here.

 

There's lots of value in the members of the board. (Plenty of whom are professionals of a higher caliber than the mechanic down the street) Discounting the value of this boards knowledge, on this board itself seems to defeat the purpose of being here in the first place. This is an incredible resource that over the years has kept thousands of cars on the road and likely kept millions of dollars collectively in peoples pockets by informing and teaching them how to do it right and get the best value.

[Olnick]

Very nicely stated, Adventure.

[ThosL]

How is someone going to know that the bubbles are CO unless they do the right test?  It could be other things and there are some definite tests to find out how bad the problem has become and if it is a head gasket problem probably the heads will have to be checked and done too.  

 

Bubbles in coolant are not necessarily blown head gasket.  I wonder how many head gasket jobs have been done before rigorous testing? Plus it is possible the job has already been done with some type of guarantee still outstanding.

 

And on the stop leak products, yes they can be a waste of money and clog things up, etc., but didn't Subaru make a similar product?  Probably not the Kevlar-based liquid (I heard) that one of the more popular products uses for good or bad.  What I have heard from mechanics is sometimes the stop leak products work for a while; but I would also throw out a lot of cautions on it.

Edited April 20, 2016 by ThosL

[cbenson92]

Is there anyone here willing to let me call them and explain to them new findings/issues I am having?

[Rooster2]

Is there anyone here willing to let me call them and explain to them new findings/issues I am having?

Drop me a note via e-mail, at fish6525@yahoo.com. My name is Larry (rooster2). Include your tel #, I will give you a call to see if I can help

[DaveT]

I've been running and repairing Subarus since the mid 80s.  Mostly EA82s.  I've seen and repaired a fair number of head gasket failures.  All began as a slow tiny stream of bubbles in the recovery tank. A couple were not slow, due to more extreme overheats while low on coolant.   It could be a slow as 1 per second, even slower.  All progressed to faster bigger streams.  Some degraded more quickly than others.  In the ones that degraded very slowly, there were traces of black soot at the waterline in the recovery tank.  New head gaskets fixed the problem.

Yes, if there is some trapped air in the coolant system, there will be bubbles while the temperature goes from room to operating, but that is not a continuous steady stream, it stops.

 

If there is only a bit of air from incomplete fill, it will work out over a few drive cycles.  If there is a tiny leak, there may be no trace but the air never getting out, and the coolant level slowly dropping.  These don't cause a steady stream of bubbles after the engine is at operating temp. 

I've also experienced and read of others, that once you get an overheat due to low coolant, the head gasket/s are damaged, and the bubble leak can be slow, or fast, or anywhere in between.

 

I know of no other source of "air" at pressure in the engine than that from the compression / combustion cycles in the cylinders that can force it's way into the coolant system.

[AdventureSubaru]

How is someone going to know that the bubbles are CO unless they do the right test?  It could be other things and there are some definite tests to find out how bad the problem has become and if it is a head gasket problem probably the heads will have to be checked and done too.  

 

Bubbles in coolant are not necessarily blown head gasket.  I wonder how many head gasket jobs have been done before rigorous testing? Plus it is possible the job has already been done with some type of guarantee still outstanding.

 

And on the stop leak products, yes they can be a waste of money and clog things up, etc., but didn't Subaru make a similar product?  Probably not the Kevlar-based liquid (I heard) that one of the more popular products uses for good or bad.  What I have heard from mechanics is sometimes the stop leak products work for a while; but I would also throw out a lot of cautions on it.

 

I just don't think you are getting it. How else are exhaust gasses getting into the coolant except by failed head gaskets? There is no more testing necessary than to 1. make sure it's not trapped air in the system. 2. Observe bubbles rising out of the overflow. (generally a steady trickle/stream)

 

Scientific method has taken care of it. It's observable. provable. repeatable. It is how the subaru gaskets fail.

 

 

You say "Bubbles in coolant are not necessarily blown head gasket" Really? Tell me what the third option is. 1. Trapped air - which is easy to burp out/fill with coolant. 2. Exhaust gasses from failed head gaskets. 3. magical singing unicorns in the coolant? vinegar and baking soda from a leftover science project?

 

Subaru coolant conditioner is meant to extend the life of headgaskets, not fix a failing one. Unless the motor has been overheated, failing head gaskets on a subaru DO NOT suggest anything wrong with the head itself. Heads should generally be resurfaced to seat the new gaskets. But unless they were overheated or starved for oil they'll be fine.

 

Again, you need to know more stuff before you can give an informed opinion or argue a subject. You're just needlessly cluttering and confusing what would otherwise be a straightforward diagnosis here. Not trying to bash you. Just asking you exercise a little more humility and speak from experience rather than hearsay or assumption.

[AdventureSubaru]

Is there anyone here willing to let me call them and explain to them new findings/issues I am having?

likewise. You can pm me for my phone number or send me yours if you want a second opinion or additional perspective. Done dozens of head gasket jobs on these and a bunch of transplants too when appropriate.

[cbenson92]

 

likewise. You can pm me for my phone number or send me yours if you want a second opinion or additional perspective. Done dozens of head gasket jobs on these and a bunch of transplants too when appropriate.