Considering Forester - advice

[Will92]

Hi all:

 

Glad I found this forum.  So I've been looking for a good used SUV for winter driving in Colorado.  Most of the year is OK but when we get hit we get hit hard!  I will say first of all that I've been a big Toyota fan and had my heart set on a Hybrid Highlander because I like the size, power and awesome mpg.  My other consideration was the 4Runner because it is a true 4WD.  However, as I started to educate myself about exactly how a AWD performs, I started to read about the Subaru AWD system.  I have a few questions...

 

1. First of all, from what I understand, the Subaru AWD applies constant power to ALL four wheels.  Is this correct?  Also, from what I understand, all other AWD system are primarily fwd UNTIL rear wheel slippage is detected and THEN applies power to the rear wheels.  So, what makes the Subaru system superior?  Is it that there is basically no "reaction time" for rear wheel power to be applied?  And, does this really matter going down a level snowy or icy road?  I am inclined to think that AWD is only really needed when you are actually stuck in which case I would think it wouldn't matter which style you have.

 

2. I have always thought that a true 4WD vehicle was far superior to any AWD vehicle including the subaru.  I was originally looking at Jeeps which has a sort of cult following out here.  But... they have the WORST reliability according to Consumer Reports.  However, again, the Toyota 4Runner has an excellent reliability rating.  However, now I'm starting to think a good AWD vehicle might be just as good AND you don't have to physically shift into 4WD.

 

3. Regarding the Subaru AWD system again, is power continually shifted between front and rear?  For dry road conditions, what is the approximate split between front and rear power?

 

4. Are there any problematic years for the Forester I should be aware of?  I'm looking at 2003 on up.  I am aware of the head gasket issue and am making sure any Subaru I consider has had this repair.

 

5. Can a tow hitch be added to the Forester?  We have some bikes and I supposed I could take advantage of the factory roof rack system, but was just wondering.  I watched a brief YouTube video and it seems like adding a trailer hitch is quite complicated on the Forester and I'm not sure if Subaru even recommends any sort of tow attachment.  

 

6. Finally, what about the Tribeca.  I like that it is 6 cylinder and would presumably have better acceleration and power but there seem to be a lot of folks here in CO that seem to do just fine with the 4 cylinder Forester.  Plus, it seems the Tribeca is quite rare.  Also, I read on Edmunds that people complain the headlights are so dim they can't see at night!  

 

Thanks for helping out a newbie with these basic questions.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Will92

[AdventureSubaru]

Welcome!

 

Others will be able to explain some of the hows and whys of AWD better than I can. Functionally speaking though if the plan is to drive on the road but in snowy conditions etc. AWD (especially subaru) will be superior to 4WD. Especially as 4WD should not be used on dry paved roads and such, the AWD is already there all the time. It gives you much more grip and traction to keep you in control to never be stuck or spin out in the first place.

 

If the plan is off road on rough trails/deeper stuff 4WD is better than AWD.

 

Head gaskets are the #1 thing to look for in those years. Also check the trans for torque bind (Drive a slow tight circle and feel for binding/shuttering) and make sure tires are matching. Keep an eye out on any Subaru for oil loss/consumption. They leak as they get into higher miles and I've seen some die prematurely simply because they got run low on oil. After 150k or thereabouts, it's just good to check the dipstick every so often.

 

Tow hitch - YES! And can be found online pretty cheap. We got a brand new class 2 for my wifes outback for about 165 shipped. I have towed cars behind my outback.

 

Tribeca is not very good on gas compared to the others. It's got a good motor in there but has had a number of glitchy type issues. 7 seater on some though. 4cylinders on the forester are pretty peppy though. Especially paired with a 5 speed.

Edited April 23, 2016 by AdventureSubaru

[Will92]

Thanks!  I just watched a YouTube video by CR comparing the Forester, CRV and Rav4 on a wet track course.  The Subaru dominated the competition in terms of controlled steering and ESC.  Very impressive.  Other videos with Subarus in deep snow were also impressive but it seems most folks blasted through deep snow with sort of a running start so I think for very deep snow, a true 4WD would do better. Am I right?   However, for all around performance, the Subaru AWD is probably the way to go.  I think the next best option would be the Toyota 4Runner with true 4WD.  I really want to go and drive a Forester now!  I was looking at a used LL Bean for sale on CL.  I just wish Subaru had something just a big larger without having to go to the wagon design (which I really don't like).

 

PS why has this head gasket thing been such a problem?  I seems like it has existed for so long that Subaru would have started to use the improved gaskets a long time ago.

[brus brother]

Saw a 2014 Forrester engine pulled yesterday for what is described as excess oil consumption. Google it as there is a class action lawsuit out there.

[Bushwick]

AWD and 4x4 are the same thing. 4x4 was a truck-related terminology of years past, and typically applied to RWD trucks that had manually locking hubs (had to get out and lock hubs by hand) and a lo/hi 4x4 lever. They also ran solid axles front/rear. 

 

AWD terminology typically was used on later cars and some early smaller tucks that had all-time 4 wheel drive (all-time meaning it can't be disabled though some Subaru do have the means to force FWD). Some had solid rear axles with CV shafts in the front, but that's fallen out of favor for mainly independent front and rear differentials with front/rear CV shafts.

 

Different manufacturers have varying differences with how the power is applied to the front/rear wheels, but it's all fundamentally the same. Some people will argue that 4x4 is different, but it's not. The trans setup and the way the power is sent the wheels is the only real difference. I think modern Jeeps like the Liberty, etc. are actually FWD and will power the rear if/when needed.

 

Can't go wrong with any of the Subaru line up. Forester sits higher, and gives better ground clearance. Run good winter/all-season tires and you'll probably never get stuck unless you decide to go off roading on grass with 10" of snow setting on top. I've pulled a RAV4 out a of a ditch, and even an F150 off a patch of ice, and a smaller Tracker that got stuck in a driveway, and my car is a 95' Legacy wagon of all things. Most recently stopped at a CD store last heavy snow fall and the plow hadn't arrived to salt his parking lot. FWD Dodge Journey was stuck on minor grade, as was a brand new cargo van. I drove right on out w/o even a hint of tire slip after they got out. You'll love a Subaru. I actually enjoy mine so much that after a heavy snow overnight, I'd go out at 4-5 am and look for the side roads that weren't plowed or salted yet to just to drive through the deepest sections I could find. Very fun and liberating in a sense. Remember years ago owning RWD cars that got stuck on 2' of snow of flat driveways, so it's nice not having that restriction. Even  nicer is you can drift on turns.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Bushwick

[Will92]

Thanks.  You mentioned AWD systems are essentially the same, but doesn't the Subaru apply power to ALL wheels at ALL times unlike others like the Rav4, Highlander, Sorento, etc. etc. that only apply power to the front wheels UNTIL rear wheel slippage is detected?  I thought that was made the Subaru unique regarding AWD.  If this is true, I don't completely understand what the advantage would be other than perhaps there is a delay time with the competitors before AWD which make them less safe.    It would be grateful if someone could explain this to me.

 

Also, I found the iihs site which can tell you which models had ESC.  Is this a nice feature?

 

Finally, I noticed on a CL ad for a 2006 that there is no actual window frame on the door.  Do any of the Forester years have a true window frame as part of the door?

Edited April 23, 2016 by Will92

[Rooster2]

Thanks.  You mentioned AWD systems are essentially the same, but doesn't the Subaru apply power to ALL wheels at ALL times unlike others like the Rav4, Highlander, Sorento, etc. etc. that only apply power to the front wheels UNTIL rear wheel slippage is detected?  I thought that was made the Subaru unique regarding AWD.  If this is true, I don't completely understand what the advantage would be other than perhaps there is a delay time with the competitors before AWD which make them less safe.    It would be grateful if someone could explain this to me.

 

Also, I found the iihs site which can tell you which models had ESC.  Is this a nice feature?

 

Finally, I noticed on a CL ad for a 2006 that there is no actual window frame on the door.  Do any of the Forester years have a true window frame as part of the door?

I think I read somewhere that Subaru AWD is designed to run 90% power through the front wheels, 10% at the rear wheels as a default set up. That ratio probably changes when any tire spin is detected, but I don't remember the particulars.

 

In addition to pulling well through snow and ice. Subaru AWD traction is well appreciated, when driving through heavy rain, and standing water. Car does not easily slide around.

[wondercow2]

The automatics do (or at least did) a 90/10 split, but the 5-speeds were 50/50. Obsessing over the numbers is not very productive for a car shopper. Whatever the mechanical details, the power distribution system & weight distribution of the Subaru makes for a much better AWD experience then many other SUVs and trucks. 

 

Edit: See this page for comparisons. http://www.awdwiki.com/en/subaru/

Apparently the autos are more like 80/20 after 1996 (?), and the newer CVT is 60/40 (we have one of these in a 2014 Impreza and have never had issues getting stuck in serious UP winters).

Edited April 24, 2016 by wondercow2

[wtdash]

I'd read up on cars101.com about Subaru. Look under the Archives link for each year Forester and its related options/upgrades/etc.

 

 

My opinions:

 

1. Most AWD vehicles have 3 open diffs - front>center>rear. It's too confusing for me to explain so search on it. To be 'picky', nothing but a Full Time 4WD w/locking differentials (not limited-slip) will supply 'constant power to ALL four wheels' as the tires must be able to turn @ different speeds while turning on dry/wet pavement, or it'll damage the differentials. These will have a selector on the floor/dash to engage the 4WD.  Very few vehicles have this. The Jeep Rubicon, Landcruiser are examples. Many NEWER vehicles achieve a 'virtual' 4WD system via the use of ABS,  traction control, etc. to put torque to all 4 wheels as needed. Read up on OPEN differentials, as this is what allows wheels to turn and spin @ different speeds. 

 

2. True 4WD is great for OFF-road. For normal driving on snow-covered, icy or wet roads, AWD is better for most drivers.....if you're a wanna-be rally driver, you may prefer the 4WD.

 

3. Power is shifted but it depends on the transmission, as noted. There are various systems utilized.

 

Look @ that link above by WC2.

 

From Cars101.com for the 2002 Outback:

 

All Wheel Drive

Active All Wheel Drive, all Subarus except VDC Limited. 

Manual transmission: Center differential that splits and constantly varies power, usually 50/50 front to back 

Automatic transmission: electronically controlled, mostly front wheel drive, constantly varyies front-to-back power split.

VDC All Wheel Drive VTD All Wheel Drive, VDC variable dynamic control model only

VDC: (variable dynamics control)

The overall name of the system, and of the model, of full time traction control that senses vehicle direction and uses brakes, throttle and engine management to control and maintain stabilty.

VTD (variable torque distribution) All Wheel Drive system that transfers powers front to back. Usually 45/55 front to back split.

The way the system operates

the VDC Outback is always in all wheel drive, using a Variable Torque Distribution (VTD) of 45/55 front-to-back power split. When there is slipping the VTD system will vary and adjust that front to back 45/55 power split. 

When the wheels are spinning or the vehicle is not going in the direction it is being steered, the  VDC (variable dynamic control) engine management system kicks in and will use brakes to slow down wheel spin and control vehicle direction, and also control engine output to cut back power to the wheel  or wheels that do not have traction, again to reduce wheel spin and re-direct the vehicle in the direction it is being steered.

 

 

4. Overall, the 2003+ are similar in their reliability. The '11 Forester had the new FB25 engine - I've not heard good/bad yet - but I'm not that familiar w/the newer stuff. The CVT transmission was avl. in '14. If you look on here or on SubaruForester.org you'll see enough issues to cause concern, but that's common if you look @ other online forums....it's the nature of forums - people come here to find answers to problems, not to praise their cars.

 

5. Hitches are avl.. Install isn't that tough - depends on the year and your skills. 

 

6. Forget the Tribeca - Subaru has. Disco'd in '14. They're not bad cars, just much better choices, IMHO.

 

I lived in CO, am a skier, and wouldn't be w/out my AWD and studded snow tires. You mentioned CR and they showed that dedicated snow tires  - studded or studless - are an important part of making your vehicle Winter-Ready. Colorado's Big Snow Dumps require AWD/4WD, ground clearance, and snow tires....esp. if you live in the Front Range foothills. I'm also a Toyota fan, and the 4Runner would be a good choice, but you give up MPG, and personally I think Subarus handle better as they're not so hIGH....or as heavy. I'd also add the '06-'12 Rav4 to your list...but I'm biased as that's what we have (in addition to our Subarus).

 

GL,

Td

 

 

[ccrinc]

I have an AWD 2009 Forester and we also have 2 4x trucks.  We would NEVER run a truck in 4x on the highway unless we needed to get through some heavy snow.  All my Subarus have done just great in any depth of snow and you'll even see Subarus pulling 4x vehicles out of the road-side ditches because idiots and 4WD just don't mix.

 

On ice, nothing will help you, except possibly special "ice" tires.  But the Subaru AWD system still performs better in icy conditions than any 4WD.    Also, AWD performs like a boss on curvy mountain roads, sure-footed and responsive.  I've done enough "canyon runs" to really appreciate the Subaru driveline.

 

Towing capacity on a Forester is 1000 lbs without trailer brakes. 2400 with trailer brakes according to cars101.com.

 

Emily

[Will92]

Thanks all... another question... I see on some of Foresters on CL  I'm looking at that it lists "tow package".  Does this mean it is just equipped with a factory tow hitch or does it mean it has an additional oil or transmission fluid cooler?  Can a Forester without the tow package still be equipped to tow and how would that be done.

 

thanks

Edited April 25, 2016 by Will92

[ccrinc]

If it has a factory tow package, it has a hitch rated for (I believe) 1000 lbs. and a transmission cooler.

 

Emily

[AdventureSubaru]

Easy enough to add on later. If it comes with towing setup, thats a bonus. But a $200 hitch takes about and hour to install. plug in wiring is another $35. Don't limit your search simply to those already equipped with towing packages.