96 Legacy 2.2 died, spark on cylinder 1, 2 but no spark on 3, 4

[Subarunation 713]

Been a long time since I kicked around USMB. Tried searching but didn't come up with this one. We have two 96 OBW with 5 speeds and 2.2 engines.

Here is what happened. My wife started up her car this morning and began to back out of the driveway. After running for about 30-45 seconds the car died and would not restart.

Here is what was done (in order).
Fuel before filter when key turned on? Yes, plenty.

Fuel after filter when key turned on? Yes, plenty.
Pulled spark plugs they were wet with gas.
Checked spark, present is cylinders one and two but NOT in three or four.
Took coil off of my car and put it on here car and her coil on my car. My car still ran, her car still no spark on the back cylinders.
Took the ignitor off of my car and put it on her car and put her ignitor on my car. My car still ran, her car still no spark on the back cylinders.

So I am wondering what causes the front two cylinders to have spark but not the back two cylinders?

Open to suggestions! Thanks in advance.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Subarunation 713

[Subarunation 713]

Additional items tended to.

Took off both battery connectors, cleaned connectors and posts.

While battery was disconnected cleaned ground from battery to engine.

While battery was disconnected (and brake pedal pushed for 30 seconds to rid any residual current) disconnected and inspected ECU connection. Visually no corroded or white powdery connections or pins. Again, only visual.

While battery was disconnected I took of the ignitor, cleaned any corrosion off of mating surfaces and put di-electric grease of plug.

While battery was disconnected I took off the coil pack and cleaned all surfaces and put di-electric grease on plug.

Reattached plug leads but before doing so slightly spread all bullet connectors going into the coil and made sure they were clean and not burned.

Reatttached battery connections. Spark on cylinders one and two but no spark on cylinders three and four.

 

Remember it started normally and ran normally for 30-45 seconds before dying out.

Background, this was a CO car for a large portion of it's 20 years. Things are clean and moderately rust free compared to my pile of rust that has been driven in northern IN and southwest MI nearly it's entire life.

[Subarunation 713]

One more item eliminated.
Took the spark plug leads off of my car and put them on her car. Her car still had no spark on 3-4.
Put the leads back on my car and my car runs normally.

[ocei77]

Test the coil.

Sounds like it is bad. Our coils are paired. 1 and 2, use the front section and 3,4 the rear.

 

O.

[Subarunation 713]

Test the coil.

Sounds like it is bad. Our coils are paired. 1 and 2, use the front section and 3,4 the rear.

 

O.

As mentioned in my first post I already took the coil off of my car and put it one her car with no success. I then put the coil from her car on my car and my car ran.

 

Other than swapping coils how do you test a coil?

[Fairtax4me]

How old is the timing belt?

[Subarunation 713]

How old is the timing belt?

No Idea, I bought it used. The new one is in a box on the floor next to me. Don't suppose that helps :-)

The water pump developed a wee drip so I got all the goodies including a new belt.

Currently sitting with about 135K miles.

 

ocei77, I found a good coil I had on the shelf and tried it. Same outcome. No spark on 3-4.  :-(

[Rooster2]

Still sounds like a coil problem, but not with the coil itself. It has been a while since I have had to work with one. Maybe the wiring going TO the coil??  Check to see if the wiring, and connector are in good shape. Still sounds like half of the coil is not activating.

 

BTW, nice town you live in............about twice per year, my wife and I visit family, who have a lake house near Bridgman. We like to go to the two family owned restaurants on the main drag of town. We like the one with the Greek theme best, but cannot remember the name. Nice people work there, great food. Do they still serve 4 eggs, when 2 eggs are ordered??

[Fairtax4me]

Doesn't take long to check the timing just to rule it out. Count the reluctor teeth on the crank sprocket and make sure they're all there.

 

Wire issue is possible. Could also be a bad igniter circuit in the ECU. ECU signals the igniter, ingiter tells the coil when to fire.

[Subarunation 713]

Still sounds like a coil problem, but not with the coil itself......Check to see if the wiring, and connector are in good shape. Still sounds like half of the coil is not activating.

 

BTW, nice town you live in............We like the one with the Greek theme best

Checked the plugs and wires. Continuity between the igniter and the coil and it isn't the igniter.

 

I haven't been in there in a long time. Went from Greek Islands to Sammy's and I think it is Lydia's now??

 

Doesn't take long to check the timing just to rule it out. Count the reluctor teeth on the crank sprocket and make sure they're all there.

 

Wire issue is possible. Could also be a bad igniter circuit in the ECU. ECU signals the igniter, ingiter tells the coil when to fire.

Help me understand what you mean by reluctor teeth? and is this done without pulling the TB cover?

 

I am thinking ECU after having checked the wiring between the igniter and the coil. Maybe tomorrow I will pull the ECU out of my OBW and put it in her OBW. It is nice we have two identical cars to swap things between. When I replace the water pump/seals/timing belt/idlers/tensioner I will have access to the belt and can see the gears.

 

Still, the timing would not mean spark on half the coil and not the other. If it had jumped timing there would still be spark, just at the wrong time.

[Cougar]

If you haven't yet checked to see if the coil is getting power and ground to it then that should be done before anything else.

[Subarunation 713]

If you haven't yet checked to see if the coil is getting power and ground to it then that should be done before anything else.

Well it is getting power thus the spark on cylinder one and two. Nevertheless I cleaned the ground surfaces with the same outcome.

[Cougar]

Okay, I was thinking you had two separate coils. Since that is the case then the crank signal is most likely the best suspect and the reluctor teeth should be inspected if you can't look at the signal waveform coming from the crank sensor. To do that you will need to remove the TB covers and check the crank sprocket. Check to see if any of the teeth for the sensor have been broken off.

[Subarunation 713]

Okay, I was thinking you had two separate coils. Since that is the case then the crank signal is most likely the best suspect and the reluctor teeth should be inspected if you can't look at the signal waveform coming from the crank sensor. To do that you will need to remove the TB covers and check the crank sprocket. Check to see if any of the teeth for the sensor have been broken off.

You and Fairtax4me both mentioned the teeth on the crank sprocket. Is this a high percentage option? I would think broken teeth on a running car would be a 0.0000001% chance. Has this become a higher risk thing on the EJ22? Please understand, I am not being argumentative, just curious. A broken trigger on a gear sprocket or an ECU where would you place your bet? I will see the sprocket soon enough.

 

I do appreciate everybody's input.

[ocei77]

Also pull the cam sensor. I've had two instances where the contact is covered in oil and dirt and would not pass all the signals. just clean it.

 

o.

[Subarunation 713]

Also pull the cam sensor. I've had two instances where the contact is covered in oil and dirt and would not pass all the signals. just clean it.

 

o.

Excellent suggestion. It was filthy as was the crank sensor. Cleaned them both.

Still, no spark.  :-(

[Cougar]

I know what you mean about the sprocket issue. It does seem remote. After looking at the service data again I think you now need to check some wire connections between the ECU and the igniter, and between the igniter and the coil. The wire colors from the igniter to the ECU are yel/violet and yel/blue and tie to pins 40 and 41 of the ECU. The two wire colors that tie between the igniter and the coil are red/grn and blue. Make sure those wires are making good connection. Connector B22 and E3 tie together between the igniter and the coil so maybe one of the wires is not making good connection there. Just reseating the connector may solve the issue.

[wtdash]

Swapping the ECU takes about 15 minutes...be careful removing the passenger side sill cover as its tabs are delicate, otherwise it's an easy swap.

GL

[1 Lucky Texan]

swap crank sensors.

[Subarunation 713]

I know what you mean about the sprocket issue. It does seem remote. After looking at the service data again I think you now need to check some wire connections between the ECU and the igniter, and between the igniter and the coil. The wire colors from the igniter to the ECU are yel/violet and yel/blue and tie to pins 40 and 41 of the ECU. The two wire colors that tie between the igniter and the coil are red/grn and blue. Make sure those wires are making good connection. Connector B22 and E3 tie together between the igniter and the coil so maybe one of the wires is not making good connection there. Just reseating the connector may solve the issue.

I have continuity between the igniter and the coil and between the igniter and the ECU.

 

Swapping the ECU takes about 15 minutes...be careful removing the passenger side sill cover as its tabs are delicate, otherwise it's an easy swap.

GL

Here in lies problem #1. My car is from 9-95 and my wife's is from 5-96 so our ECUs are different.

 

swap crank sensors.

Problem #2, the crank sensor would not come out of my car. I wasn't going to wreck a working sensor to see if another sensor was good or bad. If it ever has to come out it will be by breaking it apart.

 

Since I had time and I had another task to do anyway I buttoned my car up and focused on my wife's.

 

I took the timing cover off and all of the reluctor teeth are on the crank sprocket but the timing belt was SCREWED UP! The idler below the power steering pump (passenger side) was coming apart. I could see ball bearings in several places. I think the reason for the ignition issues was the cam sensor and the crank sensor thought each was speaking a different language the timing was so far off!!

 

I am going to proceed with the water pump, tensioners, idlers, and timing belt and God willing I think it will run with no issues. I won't be back to it until Friday. I will report with the process.

 

Thanks to everybody for their help and suggestions. I am grateful two things #1, wherever the car was last time my wife went anywhere that it got home. #2, that it broke down in the driveway and didn't go any further.

[Cougar]

Well I doubt the crank sensor is faulty but perhaps there is some reason it is only allowing one side to function. Well if the wires checked out okay it seems that the ECU is the best suspect at this point, unless repairing the timing belt area changes things.

[1 Lucky Texan]

the ecu compares crank and cam sensor pulses and can definitely cut operation if they are 'too far' out-of-sync.

 

Bet it will work after you get the timing system sorted.

[Subarunation 713]

Brief update. When I took the covers off and tried to see where the timing was the crank sensor and cam sensor were not even in the same ZIP code. The upper idler pulley on the passenger side of the engine was completely apart, ball bearings everywhere and it was so hot the seals had melted into little puddles. It provides no tension for the crank sprocket so the sprocket moves and randomly "pulls" the timing belt along. The water pump is indeed shot. Turns hard and grinds. The back of the timing belt has a continuous burn mark the entire way around the smooth side of the belt.

Conclusion. Subarus are awesome! Any car that starts and runs for 30-45 seconds, in the condition the timing components were in on this car, is a VERY durable machine!

I am glad we are a two driver family with four cars and a motorcycle so I don't feel any pressure to get this done RIGHT NOW!!! But I will keep you in the loop as I make progress. Right now I am cleaning up two decades of gunk..... well right now I am playing on the computer so I don't have to clean.  :-)

[Cougar]

Thanks for the good feedback. Your hot on the trail now it seems. Pretty amazing the engine even fired up. This was a good one for the books.

[Fairtax4me]

Doin the same job on a 99 this weekend. Lower idler spit the bearings and she drove it home from the store while it tried to chew its way into the water pump. Luckily, only about a mile away. Hers is interference, so came pretty close to needing a second head gasket job.