Forester brakes

[gator1]

I guess I posted this in the wrong place the other day. Oh well. I will try again.

 

Hi guys.

I have a problem on my '07 Forester. I took it into the dealer
because the brake pedal felt a little bit "mushy" - not too bad but just
a little bit. Well, it turns out that the dealership in Edmonton is
what my brother calls a "stealership". After only 50,000 km [ 30,000
miles ] highway miles.they told me that I needed to get both front
rotors replaced AND both front pads AND a brake flush. While they were
at it, they also said that there is a slight weeping of oil from one of
the head gaskets and that would entail a complete engine removal to
repair. Total repair bill was over $5,000.

 

My own shade tree mechanic looked at the rotors and said that they
were "virtually brand new" which is what you would expect from brakes
after 50,000km on the highway.

 

Now, for the perplexing bit. My brother checked somewhere on the
internet and a gentleman who is familiar with Subarus told him that the
symptom is that of a master cylinder that is about to fail WITH NO
WARNING.

 

I really don't know what to think about this. Any suggestions?

 

Thanks.

 

As an update, I got the car back from my shade tree mechanic who I trust a lot more than I trust the wrenches at Subaru and he turned the front rotors. He said he shaved about three thou off, which is what you might expect from 30,000 highway miles. The front pads are virtually new. He did adjust the back drum brakes a bit. It is better now but this business about a catastrophic main cylinder failure still bothers me.

[wtdash]

Hi,

I'm not a mech/tech either, but did your shade-tree mech bleed the brakes? If not, I'd do that, and note the Subaru-approved pattern - RF, LR, LF, RR......It is NOT the standard "Start from the furthest point" .

 

Also, verify your brake lines are still in good shape....I don't know why they wouldn't be, but maybe up north??

 

Edit: I've got no info on the MC failing....I thought most cars had a 'fail-safe' in case it does..so you can still stop.

Edited June 1, 2016 by wtdash

[gbhrps]

gator1,

 

I've wrenched on my own vehicles for 45 years, and I'm on my 4th subie OBW LTD.

 

I have never changed a rotor on any subie I've owned, but have had to replace brake pads on each, and have done brake system flushes every 4 years (some manufacturers want it done every two years).

 

The stealership you described is just as you stated, a stealership. What a bunch of cr**. The master cylinder will most likely not fail in 15 years of driving. I've owned a pile of cars since 1967 and have only ever had one go bad, and that was 16 years ago. Its like going through a Tim Horton's drive through, where they try to upsell you on the breakfast sandwich when you just ordered a coffee. It was BS.

 

As for a brake backup system, no, that backup only works when one of the brake lines springs a leak, or a brake hose. In that case you will still have two wheels that will brake. If the MC dies .... then you will only have the emergency brake on the two rear wheels.

[matt167]

You could still have a blown master, if the seals are bypassing you will have a squishy pedal but it will be there. And both circuits should never fail completely because they operate on separate seals.

[1 Lucky Texan]

independent mechanic seems good, I'd stay with him I think.

 

never read of any widespread MC problems across 3 forums and 13 years of Subaru obsession.

 

many people complain of soob brakes feeling mushy - some have installed new caliper hose and even MC braces to reduce firewall flex.

 

also, don't run 'economy' pads - stay with name brand or OEM ceramic, or maybe name brand semi-metallic.

[Rooster2]

If a master cylinder goes bad, you get PLENTY of warning. IMO, you will slowly notice extra stopping distance, when applying the brakes, and probably some soft pedal. There will be no catastrophic failure, so no need to worry about that.

 

I thought stealership greed was an American problem, but guess greed is a universal human problem that can be encountered anywhere, even in Canada.

 

If you have a slight weeping of oil, I would not worry about it. In fact, it is probably not oil, but coolant. Subaru sells a stop leak product, they call call coolant conditioner, that should fix the problem. This is a pretty common problem. Nothing to be concerned about. You can order the conditioner on line, and so avoid the stealership. From the line of crap they shoveled at you, I would avoid the place as much as possible.

[Numbchux]

Replacing rotors with pads is always better. Yes, most of the time it's overkill. When in doubt, a dealership is always going to err on the side of doing it "correct" than "good enough". If they pulled things apart, and saw aftermarket pads in there, they have no idea what quality or material they are, so getting good quality parts in there and fresh fluid is absolutely step one. Cheap pads will absolutely cause reduce brake effectiveness even when new, and may still be your problem. Heck, buying great quality aftermarket pads and rotors (which frequently are oiled to prevent rust) without cleaning things properly can ruin the pads. I bet you'd be even more pissed if you paid the dealership to put a new master in it, and it turned out to just have crap pads.....

 

Virtually all EJ251/253s with original head gaskets leak. They start with an external oil leak, and then begin to burn coolant. It will only get worse until they're replaced. The Superceded gaskets are multi-layer steel instead of the OE composite, and are much better, so once they're done, they will last much longer. We quote US$2k for that job itself, and that's assuming no head work, and no timing components. I just sold the gaskets to a very reputable local shop that is charging US$3k for it.

 

 

I'm not saying you should have to pay $5k (canadian, I assume...), but I also don't think their crooks for quoting you that much. There's an assumption that cars going into a dealership for repair are going to come out in like-new mechanical condition, that costs extra and is certainly not for everyone. That price sounds a little high, but they're quoting a lot of work to be done, with only OE parts....

 

 

 

All that said, I've never heard of a Master Cylinder failing catastrophically with very little warning. They have rubber seals in them which can leak past, which gives a spongy pedal feeling.

 

If you're sitting parked, put your foot on the brakes (preferably engine running) with moderate pressure and hold them. If the pedal recedes down to the floor, you either have an external leak, or an internally leaking Master Cylinder.

 

 

If not, step one is to bleed the brakes, make sure the fluid is healthy, maybe pump a couple pints of fluid through the whole system to make sure there is no water or air present. While I have had good luck bleeding the brakes in the more conventional pattern (it's kind of a pain with a floor jack to do it correctly), but considering that you're having issues, do it correctly.

 

Then inspect all caliper hardware. Make sure the pins move freely (remove the pads, and bolt the calipers back on to make sure each pair of pins moves freely together, not just individually). And use a c-clamp to make sure the pistons push back into the caliper bore smoothly.

 

My next suspect would be the front pads. You've established that they're fairly new, but are they any good? If you don't know the history on them, I would replace them. OE ones are nice, but money can be saved on some quality aftermarket. 

[1 Lucky Texan]

did the car come from an area known for salting roads? how's the rust underneath? is it losing brake fluid?

 

an 07 should be fine, but some older , rusty soobs develop brake line leaks above the fuel tank.

[gator1]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

 

By the sounds of it, I think I do not need to do anything major or anything soon. My shade tree mechanic has a really good reputation around here and I have used him for almost 20 years on other cars. This is the first time he has had a look at the Subaru [ other than oil changes ] because this is the first time anything has been really wrong. Other than that, it has been a great little car for our Canadian winters.

 

gator