over heating issue 1996 ej2.2 AT 115k miles

[winginit]

I picked up this car and needed work.  i thought i got all the air out of the cooling system.  But i registered the car and after a few miles the temp gauge goes hot and the heat goes cold.

 

No white smoke.

No oil in the coolant

No coolant in the oil.

 

i have been letting it idle with the cap off and keep topping it off.  the heat came back i put the cap on and down the road a few miles.  temp goes hot i pull over open the cap and let pressure out.NOW the strange thing the temp gauge dropped like a rock heat comes back.    start driving home and the temp creeps up again.

 

ANY ADVISE ?

 

IS there still air in the system or are the head gasket blown ?

 

What tools do i need to test a bad head gasket ?    

 

How much does it cost to have a shop do the gaskets in CT ?     THANKS 

[winginit]

bump

[Rooster2]

Suspect a bad head gasket. The 2.2 motor is not known for having a head gasket problem, but it does happen. I had a 91 Leggie with the 2.2 that developed bad head gaskets. Best tool for diagnosing a bad head gasket on a Subie is to look for air bubbles in the radiator over flow container, when temp starts to rise. If you see that, it is a sure sign of bad HGs. Problem is caused by bad HG allowing exhaust gas to enter the cooling system at the breach, thus causing the over heating. So, in this case, there will not be a mixture of oil in the coolant, or coolant in the oil.. After market coolant or oil additive products to fix bad HGs, will not work in a Subaru.

[DaveT]

Classic failing headgasket description.

[winginit]

thanks men,   i believe i have a head gasket job !  thanks

[1 Lucky Texan]

??????

 

is it pushing coolant out to the overflow?

 

maybe an issue with bad rad cap and/or incorrect thermostat.

 

OEM-style is required. (there are 2-3 aftermarket sources with the larger wax capsule, Stant makes one)

 

[idosubaru]

*** is it LOOSING coolant***?   basically we're looking for a leak.  if it's loosing coolant somewhere it might not be headgaskets. 

 

bubbling in the overflow is classic internal headgsket failure (it's pushing exhaust gases into the coolant). 

testing for exhaust gases in the coolant is the best test but the auto parts store testers aren't consistently accurate and many shops don't have the high end electrical equipment for testing that.  but you can call around and ask places if they have one.  a typical small generic mom and pop shop isn't likely to have one i don't think. 

 

but it does sound like classic headgaskets - the good and bad thing about that engine is that those headgaskets are super easy to replace, easiest subaru headgasket to do. 

the head bolts are external.  unbolt manifolds, remove timing belt and off the heads come.  REALLY easy, could easily do it in the vehicle. 

 

make sure the heads get resurfaced and you use SUbaru OEM or maybe Fel Pro PT headgaskets.  you can resurface yourself - it's super easy as well, just read GD's thread on it here on this forum. 

 

the bad part is it's still going to cost a lot at a shop probably - a head gasket job is in general a large job and comes with high price tags.  it's rare for a shop to be like, "ah yeah those are really easy, we can do those much cheaper than most".  

[DaveT]

Yes, you do want to verify hat you are getting steady bubbles = sure sign of headgasket leak. In the early stages, the bubbles are small and not much coolant gets pushed out. As the leak gets worse, even a short drive ends up pushing enough coolant to overflow the overflow bottle.

[winginit]

​the overflow fills with coolant.  If i turn the car over with the cap off coolant blow out.  with the raid cap off and car running  i an see coolant bubbling out i thought it was normal to see bubbles during bleeding the system.

 

i called 2 places they want 1,500 and 2k to do the job.  its has 115k and  car overall is in good shape.

 

i left the car alone for a day to think.   not sure what to do.   sell car for $500 ,  fix myself or just let a pro do it.  , 

 

can i reused the head bolts?

do i have to put them back in the same place ?

sooby gaskets are the best ?

can a simple straight edge tell me if the heads are warped ?

 

can someone post a lit of what other parts i will need?

 

In the middle of writing this post i called the suby dealer

 

1. HG

2. VALVE COVER GASKET

​3. INTAKE EXHAUST GASKETS

4. VALVE COVER BOLT WASHERS

​5. THERMOSTAT 

6. WATER PIPE CROSS OVER 0-RINGS

7.OIL - FILLER NECK O-RINGS

TOTAL  $229

 

​THIS IS WHAT THE DEALER  SAY IS RECOMMENDED TO DO A HG JOB.   DO THE GUYS HERE CONCUR ?

OR NEED ANYTHING ELSE OF WHAT DO I NOT NEED ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

i am a pretty good fix guy ,only did 1 head gasket tho on a 75 chevy years ago i am trying to build the confidence to do this myself.

rednecks had the car lucky only 2 months before that a little old lady owned from new.

 

with 115k miles what kind of abuse to blow the gasket?

[mikec03]

I may be the only other person on this site that also had a HG failure on a 2.2 engine.  It happened at 217K on a 95.  It was an internal leak just like the OP with bubbles in the coolant reservoir.  The back end frame rails were rusted through so I just junked the car. 

 

I don't think anyone know if the HG failures are entirely mileage driven or if there is a strong component of time involved. 

 

Why don't you just swap in an old 2.2 especially if you are mechanically inclined?  HG failures on a 2.2 are so rear that I don't think it matters what the mileage on the old engine would be. 

[winginit]

I may be the only other person on this site that also had a HG failure on a 2.2 engine.  It happened at 217K on a 95.  It was an internal leak just like the OP with bubbles in the coolant reservoir.  The back end frame rails were rusted through so I just junked the car. 

 

I don't think anyone know if the HG failures are entirely mileage driven or if there is a strong component of time involved. 

 

Why don't you just swap in an old 2.2 especially if you are mechanically inclined?  HG failures on a 2.2 are so rear that I don't think it matters what the mileage on the old engine would be. 

Thanks for the advise.  this engine only has 115k miles i think i would rather change the HG,  

 

i know its not common for  HG to blow on a 2.2  .    thats why i want to be positive thats the problem .  i can see oil puddle on the right side top of block behind power steering reservoir.  i am going to pressure wash the engine and see if it comes back 

 

 when the temp gauge goes hot when driven the overflow fills but does not leak coolant on the ground when car cools the coolant returns to the radiator 

[1 Lucky Texan]

oil might be from leaking pressure switch. Not positive but, it may be in the area of the alternator?

 

have you confirmed it has a working, OEM-style thermostat? it matters.

Edited June 7, 2016 by 1 Lucky Texan

[idosubaru]

is the radiator cap good?

 

don't replace headbolts on Subaru's.  they're reusable.

 

looks like that list is missing the thermostat gasket.  

#6 and #7 aren't necessary but wise, cheap, and easy. 

 

 

i'd install a new timing kit from Gates and reseal the oil pump and cam seals while it's all apart and off anyway and have long term reliabiity - but that's personal preference and not necessary. 

 

get the idea of "checking for warp" off the table, that's a non-topic here, it essentially doesn't matter. 

 

Those heads don't warp, if they did you'd have some explosive symptoms and melted plastic/rubber parts on the engine which is rare. 

You want to resurface them because the heads will have high and low spots every time, and you want to have the proper finish on the heads. 

makes no sense to go through a huge job and skip that.  it's really easy to do it yourself, look here:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/122588-diy-head-resurfacing-or-post-apocalyptic-machine-shop-techniques/

 

you can order through online subaru dealers and get about %20 off so you'd be looking at saving $50 if you order online. one of the major online supliers is in CT, i forget which one though. 

[winginit]

thanks for the help,    i just pressure washed the engine,  started the car  i see NO air bubbles in the overflow tank with the radiator cap on,  only bubbles from the radiator with cap off.

 

the thermostat is new from nappa and rad cap looks original   ,  should i go to the dealer and get a thermostat and cap and try it ?

 

i ran the car around the street till temp gauge goes high ,  coolant escapes but the cap is on and the overflow cap is on,  where is it coming from ? i can see its wet from around the drivers front area.  Maybe the lower radiator hose is not tight..

 

i looked real close top and bottom of both head gaskets and i see nothing that looks like they are leaking,

 

no oil / coolant mixing no white smoke.

 

i have great heat out the vent then when the gauge overheats the heat goes cold .  Is this a clue to anything.?

 

i talked to a sooby only repair shop and he said unlikely its a HG  witch we al know and i would like to believe.

 

i have a trailer i am tempted to pay him to diagnose and then i will now !

 

                               thanks

[1 Lucky Texan]

steady bubbles are not good - I suppose you try th HG chemical test - I've read it works best when there are steady bubbles. But, the only source for continuing string of bubbles would be the combustion chamber i think?

 

the rad cap you got most resembles which of these;

 

[idosubaru]

it's hard to say without being there - but if it's pushing coolant into the overflow tank - i'd replace the radiator cap.

I'd say it's very likely a HG - but good diagnosis is ideal.

 

is it loosing coolant over a period of time? or you're not driving it so you don't know?

 

if the shop saying "unlikely its a HG" means they won't specifically narrow it down with an exhaust gas analyzer or leak down test - then i wouldn't have them diagnosis it, they'll end up thowing parts (and $) at it.

 

overheating and then loosing cabin heat is ***classic*** Subaru internal headgasket failures. so yes - that's definitely a clue. the only hesitancy is that it's uncommon on that particular engine.

 

there are a few different failure modes of the headgaskets - if your issues are caused by the headgsaket it's from exhaust being pushed into the coolant. this will not result in oil/coolant mixing, external leaks, and intitially doesn't affect compression - so all those "standard" headgasket tests are worthless. they will also be negative tests because you're looking in the wrong place - it's like looking for ice in a fire - of course you didn't find any - it can't be there. same thing here - those tests won't show anything because an internal failure like this doesn't exhibit those symptoms just based on physical laws of nature.

 

an exhaust gas analyzer can detect exhaust gases in the coolant and is the primary test here.

a leak down test can also narrow it down.

anything else is a waste of time and comes with the warning that it should give you no false sense of security - most HG familiar people on this forum could have told you all those tests would come up negative without even looking at it just based on Subaru HG faliure modes.

Edited June 7, 2016 by grossgary

[winginit]

it's hard to say without being there - but if it's pushing coolant into the overflow tank - i'd replace the radiator cap.

I'd say it's very likely a HG - but good diagnosis is ideal.

 

is it loosing coolant over a period of time? or you're not driving it so you don't know?

 

if the shop saying "unlikely its a HG" means they won't specifically narrow it down with an exhaust gas analyzer or leak down test - then i wouldn't have them diagnosis it, they'll end up thowing parts (and $) at it.

 

overheating and then loosing cabin heat is ***classic*** Subaru internal headgasket failures. so yes - that's definitely a clue. the only hesitancy is that it's uncommon on that particular engine.

 

there are a few different failure modes of the headgaskets - if your issues are caused by the headgsaket it's from exhaust being pushed into the coolant. this will not result in oil/coolant mixing, external leaks, and intitially doesn't affect compression - so all those "standard" headgasket tests are worthless. they will also be negative tests because you're looking in the wrong place - it's like looking for ice in a fire - of course you didn't find any - it can't be there. same thing here - those tests won't show anything because an internal failure like this doesn't exhibit those symptoms just based on physical laws of nature.

 

an exhaust gas analyzer can detect exhaust gases in the coolant and is the primary test here.

a leak down test can also narrow it down.

anything else is a waste of time and comes with the warning that it should give you no false sense of security - most HG familiar people on this forum could have told you all those tests would come up negative without even looking at it just based on Subaru HG faliure modes.

 

it's hard to say without being there - but if it's pushing coolant into the overflow tank - i'd replace the radiator cap.

I'd say it's very likely a HG - but good diagnosis is ideal.

 

is it loosing coolant over a period of time? or you're not driving it so you don't know?

 

if the shop saying "unlikely its a HG" means they won't specifically narrow it down with an exhaust gas analyzer or leak down test - then i wouldn't have them diagnosis it, they'll end up thowing parts (and $) at it.

 

overheating and then loosing cabin heat is ***classic*** Subaru internal headgasket failures. so yes - that's definitely a clue. the only hesitancy is that it's uncommon on that particular engine.

 

there are a few different failure modes of the headgaskets - if your issues are caused by the headgsaket it's from exhaust being pushed into the coolant. this will not result in oil/coolant mixing, external leaks, and intitially doesn't affect compression - so all those "standard" headgasket tests are worthless. they will also be negative tests because you're looking in the wrong place - it's like looking for ice in a fire - of course you didn't find any - it can't be there. same thing here - those tests won't show anything because an internal failure like this doesn't exhibit those symptoms just based on physical laws of nature.

 

an exhaust gas analyzer can detect exhaust gases in the coolant and is the primary test here.

a leak down test can also narrow it down.

anything else is a waste of time and comes with the warning that it should give you no false sense of security - most HG familiar people on this forum could have told you all those tests would come up negative without even looking at it just based on Subaru HG faliure modes.

Thanks great advise.   I pulled out the nappa stat i put in a dealer stat.   pulled the hoses off the heater core and back filled i also put the car on ramps all trying to get air out.  car still overheats.    

 

the shop i asked did not see the car they just said keep trying to bleed the coolant because HG are rare on this engine..

 

previous owner stated car ran great just had a oil seal leak so the boyfriend took it apart to fix.  and the car never was the same.   it would not start when i got it.  it was the cam censor ,  then all the timing belt parts were changed i took it apart and fixed everything.  it was overheating on her after he put it back together ME knowing they are a bitch to  bleed firgured they didnt give it enough time bleeding the coolant.

 

Maybe she drove the car overheated and ruined the gaskets even the ej 2.2 will blow if it gets hot .yes or no ?

 

                    thanks

Edited June 7, 2016 by winginit

[idosubaru]

every engine fails in various ways due to excessive heat. Head gaskets are one of those ways.

 

At 20 years old and you just got it, it's likely been overheated in the past.

 

Or my guess is that they're lying, miscommunicating, of have a bad or selective memory. It's amazing how memory has the ability to make stories and details change even if not intentional. Happens all the time.

[idosubaru]

I've asked twice I think if you're loosing coolant, are you? After running/ driving is the total amount of coolant less?

[winginit]

I've asked twice I think if you're loosing coolant, are you? After running/ driving is the total amount of coolant less?

 

I've asked twice I think if you're loosing coolant, are you? After running/ driving is the total amount of coolant less?

it looses coolant because it blows over and out the over flow bottle,  i do not see a leak anywhere..  thanks

[winginit]

every engine fails in various ways due to excessive heat. Head gaskets are one of those ways.

 

At 20 years old and you just got it, it's likely been overheated in the past.

 

Or my guess is that they're lying, miscommunicating, of have a bad or selective memory. It's amazing how memory has the ability to make stories and details change even if not intentional. Happens all the time.

 

every engine fails in various ways due to excessive heat. Head gaskets are one of those ways.

 

At 20 years old and you just got it, it's likely been overheated in the past.

 

Or my guess is that they're lying, miscommunicating, of have a bad or selective memory. It's amazing how memory has the ability to make stories and details change even if not intentional. Happens all the time.

 

every engine fails in various ways due to excessive heat. Head gaskets are one of those ways.

 

At 20 years old and you just got it, it's likely been overheated in the past.

 

Or my guess is that they're lying, miscommunicating, of have a bad or selective memory. It's amazing how memory has the ability to make stories and details change even if not intentional. Happens all the time.

i knew what i was getting into,  for $350 i took a chance, its a project, if i do the HG i will still be ahead.  ,  this car is not a daily driver.  i actually have a friend that will paint my house for it when its fixed.  i hate to paint ! 

[idosubaru]

dude i might call your friend i absolutely hate painting.  i told my wife i'd do anything but paint - in 10 years i've painted very little.  lol

 

ah - so it's overheating quick and a lot, i wasn't sure from just reading words.  that definitely sounds like HG.

iif it's that bad and i wanted 100,000 mile reliable daily driver i'd get another engine.  otherwise gasket slap it and see what happens, they're often resilient and definitely worth a shot in many situations.

[winginit]

well before i pull the heads i wanted to see what it would be like to get the exhaust nuts off the heads,  and they all came off easy. i guess i will pull the heads,  one of the heads looks bright and clean and bright bolts i wonder if they tried to change it, who knows.