heartless Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Just picked up a 2002 Forester L with the EJ251, auto, in good condition for it's age and location. The interior is nearly showroom perfect, belying the 219,200 miles on the odometer (guessing mostly highway miles). It runs and drives nicely, temp was rock steady for the short test drive (nearly out of gas, so we didn't go far), & tranny shifted fine. So, educate me (us) on the pros & cons of this little beast. things to look out for? is this one prone to head gasket issues? if so, how do they manifest? worst case scenario, how much of a pain would it be to swap in a 95 EJ22? our plan before it becomes a daily driver will be a timing belt job, and addressing the rear hatch not latching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 External head gasket leaks. At 219k its likely had them replaced already, which means you shouldn't have any problems with them again. No easy way to put a pre-99 engine in there. Once you break that 99 barrier the non-interference bullet proof 2.2 is out the window. If you know an electrical engineer who can fool the idle control system and re-work the ignition control wiring it could probably be done, but its not gonna be an easy drop in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 do the waterpump and all rollers with the timing belt, consider swapping the crank and cam seals and maybe checking the oil pump backing plate screws. good time to put in an OEM-type thermostat too 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 External head gasket leaks. At 219k its likely had them replaced already, which means you shouldn't have any problems with them again. No easy way to put a pre-99 engine in there. Once you break that 99 barrier the non-interference bullet proof 2.2 is out the window. If you know an electrical engineer who can fool the idle control system and re-work the ignition control wiring it could probably be done, but its not gonna be an easy drop in. Ok, good to know. Kinda of bummed about the no 2.2 thing, but I can live with it. do the waterpump and all rollers with the timing belt, consider swapping the crank and cam seals and maybe checking the oil pump backing plate screws. good time to put in an OEM-type thermostat too That is the plan. The old man we are buying it from has only had it for 4 years (he thinks maybe 30K miles in that time) and has no idea when the belts & such were done last... No maintenance records to speak of, other than oil changes. it does have a check engine light on, will find out later today what the code is. He had taken it to O'Reilly's and had it read, but couldn't remember exactly what it was other than "some sensor", LOL. We have a code reader we can take a long with this evening when we go pick it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 codes rarely pinpoint a bad part - just systems out of limits. post codes here, catch-up on all maintenance, clear the ECU, monitor which/how quickly codes return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtdash Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 ....and listen for REAR wheel bearings, as they're another weak spot....and the Fuel Filler neck likes to get rusty in your 'hood (MidWest). GL, TD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted June 15, 2016 Author Share Posted June 15, 2016 took the code reader with us when we went to pick it up - had several active and pending codes, but for some reason the reader was having difficulty maintaining a connection with the car (it is an Actron reader and works great on both my 1995 and the other half's 2006, so not sure why it was acting up with the 2002 will investigate that more later) 1st code listed was knock sensor, O2 was in there as well (both active and pending - different banks maybe? - again, will investigate more later) Codes aside, the car runs great, drove it the 20 miles home with no issues. Coolant temp was rock steady the whole way, and fans function as they should (kicked on when I parked and let it idle for a few minutes) wtdash - yeah, I am aware of the fuel filler neck issues, and have some concern on this one - the part visible in the fuel door area doesn't look pretty, in spite of the good condition of the rest of the car. Anyway, on to pictures of the new ride... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Good looking machine, Heartless. Congrats! Hope you can work out all the little problems and enjoy many years of happy trails. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureSubaru Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Those tend to be very good motors so long as (like any subaru) they never get run too hot or run out of oil. My wife's first outback was had the phase 2 2.5 and it was over 360,000 when we sold it (Still running) Co worker of mine got one that the original motor was at 365,000 and it died prematurely from the timing belt going. It now has a JDM ej20 in it. Thinking I may make some conversion spacers that would allow a phase 2 intake manifold bolt to phase 1 heads. Otherwise it would be a messy swap. Been done, but kind of a pain. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted June 15, 2016 Author Share Posted June 15, 2016 Thanks guys. We are pretty happy with the purchase and the price we got it for. I will update after I get a better reading on the codes & what those are, and get to spend a little more time poking around (probably this weekend) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted June 18, 2016 Author Share Posted June 18, 2016 Well, finally had a few minutes to get codes - had to wiggle the plug to get it to stay connected... Code reader is an Actron CP1975 The codes are listed in order retrieved, with as much info as the tool gave me.. 1. P0328 - Knock Sensor 1 circuit high input bank 1 or sensor 1 2. P0447 - Evap Emission Control System Vent Circuit Open 3. P1400 - Manufacturer Control Auxiliary Emissions Controls 4. P0442 - Evap Emission Control System Leak (small) 5. P0037 - HO2S Bank 1 Sensor 2 Heater Circuit Low there were also 3 codes listed as pending, all of which have hard set codes listed above... P1. P0447 P2. P0442 P3. P0037 Knock sensor is an easy one... But would be grateful for any info on the others, especially the emissions stuff... I was able to clear the codes successfully this time, so now to get it registered so it can be driven and see which ones come back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Replace knock and O2 sensors for 1 & 5. Emissions - check does the forester have that black box contraption under the back passengers side rear corner? Look for damage, mud, rust there. Those head gaskets leak externally. Yours usually coolant, sometimes oil. Check coolant levels regularly. If it gets too low it'll overheat due to low coolant but not directly like older EJ25 head gaskets. Replaced head gaskets, if they fail, have wider variation of failure modes. Can overheat without coolant being low. Add Subaru Coolant Conditioner now and any coolant refill. Subaru had a recall and extended 100,000 mile head gasket warrNty on 00-02 models. Might be able to ask Subaru if that car was ever worked On on the past. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted June 18, 2016 Author Share Posted June 18, 2016 Replace knock and O2 sensors for 1 & 5.knock sensor = easy... but guessing this model has more than one O2 sensor? not sure which one? Anyone have any further insight on that one?Emissions - check does the forester have that black box contraption under the back passengers side rear corner? Look for damage, mud, rust there.Will look into that.Those head gaskets leak externally. Yours usually coolant, sometimes oil. Check coolant levels regularly. If it gets too low it'll overheat due to low coolant but not directly like older EJ25 head gaskets.Replaced head gaskets, if they fail, have wider variation of failure modes. Can overheat without coolant being low.Good info to know. Add Subaru Coolant Conditioner now and any coolant refill.Will see about getting a bottle for when we do the timing job since water pump will be getting replaced at the same time. Subaru had a recall and extended 100,000 mile head gasket warranty on 00-02 models. Might be able to ask Subaru if that car was ever worked on in the past. Will see what we can find out. thanks for that info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 That's very nice! P1400 Description Fuel Tank Pressure Control Solenoid Circuit Low Input You have codes for two of the solenoids that will be at the back of the car. Check the connectors for rust/corrosion. Those solenoids tend to be pretty expensive new, so I would not go throwing parts at it until you've done some checking with a multimeter are reasonably sure of the problem. O2 bank 1 sensor 2 is passenger side after the cat. General rule is that bank 1 will be the side with cylinder number 1. Sensor 1 is before the cat, sensor 2 is after the cat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted June 18, 2016 Author Share Posted June 18, 2016 That's very nice! P1400 Description Fuel Tank Pressure Control Solenoid Circuit Low Input You have codes for two of the solenoids that will be at the back of the car. Check the connectors for rust/corrosion. Those solenoids tend to be pretty expensive new, so I would not go throwing parts at it until you've done some checking with a multimeter are reasonably sure of the problem. O2 bank 1 sensor 2 is passenger side after the cat. General rule is that bank 1 will be the side with cylinder number 1. Sensor 1 is before the cat, sensor 2 is after the cat. Thanks Fairtax! I am used to the older models with only one O2 sensor - got a lot more to learn on this newer beast. lol just out of curiosity, would a loose fuel cap cause that P1400 to set? and possibly the others? the fuel cap was not very tight when I went to put some gas in it to drive it home... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 That could cause the evap small leak code, but the other two are circuit codes, which means they're related to wiring or the solenoids themselves are corroded or damaged. The ECU monitors those solenoids by reading the voltage on the wires from the ECU to the solenoid. It's looking for 12v going to the solenoid, and some amount of voltage coming back based on resistance of the internal ECU circuitry and the solenoid and wiring. When it doesn't see the correct voltage on the return or ground side of the circuit its sets a code for which condition is present, be that high voltage or low voltage. Circuit low = low voltage. Low voltage says the solenoid is electrically open, current cannot pass through it because the resistance is too high due to corrosion, or there is wire damage such as rodent damage, or that the wiring from the ECU to the solenoid is corroded. Since you have codes for two different solenoids, you could have corrosion in a connector in the harnesses that run along the rocker panels inside the car under the carpet. I think the wiring for those solenoids runs along the right side, but im not 100% sure of that. You'll want an FSM for that year so you can identify which solenoid is which, and check the wiring from the solenoids back to the ECU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 (edited) I recall some Foresters having an easily knocked-loose connector in the back - maybe it's something simple - fingers crossed. also, the green diagnostic connectors might help determine if the solenoids are clicking? Edited June 18, 2016 by 1 Lucky Texan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Your forester only has one front O2 sensor, very simple. and a rear sensor as well. Replace front O2. Subaru had some kind of recall/initiative for failing front O2 sensors of some 2002's. It included an ECU reflash (very rare for pre-2005 stuff) in some cases. Your code and mileage suggest it's simply time to replace a consumable part but might be worth noting that specific issue to google it if needed in the future. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted June 18, 2016 Author Share Posted June 18, 2016 Ok, that gives me a place to start working from, thanks to both of you. Texan - that video is fantastic! thank you! Gary, thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 (edited) In general pre 2005 stuff (except 2004 PEZV whatever) is basically simpler and just like 1990s EJ22's with very simple changes you'll adjust to very quickly. 2005 (& 04 PEZV whatever) starts to get more cumbersome and complicated with active valve systems and controls, 3, 4, 5 O2 sensors, ECU starts to actually use the rear O2 sensor, drive by wire, CANBUS, chipped keys you can no longer easily get a back up key, an absolutely beastly remote programming sequence.... Yours is easy peasy. In other words you made a great choice! Edited June 18, 2016 by grossgary 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted June 18, 2016 Author Share Posted June 18, 2016 In general pre 2005 stuff (except 2004 PEZV whatever) is basically simpler and just like 1990s EJ22's with very simple changes you'll adjust to very quickly. that is what I am finding out, lol. Just confirmed it is just the single O2 sensor, so that is easily taken care of (same basic exhaust as my 95 Lego) found the green test connectors, hooked them up and cycled the system - not getting any kind of response on that evap solenoid in the back... there is a fair bit of rust back under there, too - a short metal pipe between two of the rubber hoses is looking pretty rough (runs across the top of the canister) - more digging is in order to determine just how bad things are, and to get the solenoid out and test further before ordering parts. all 3 evap codes, and the O2 code came back after just starting the car, so O2 will definitely be ordered along with a complete timing kit, and with a bit more testing, thinking the evap solenoid will be on order as well.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith3267 Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Bank 1 sensor 2 means the rear sensor, not the front one and the heater for the sensor has burned out. Most DTCs (diagnostic trouble codes) are two trip codes, meaning that the condition must be detected in two drive cycles in a row before the MIL (check engine light) is lit. The first time the condition is detected, a pending code is stored in the PCM memory. If it is not detected on the next drive cycle (cold start to operating temp and then shut down long enough to get back to cold), the code is deleted. If it is detected in the next drive cycle, the MIL is turned on and the code appears twice, once as a pending and once as an active code. If the condition disappears due to repair or luck, the MIL will turn off after ten drive cycles but the codes will remain for thirty drive cycles. Anytime during the thirty drive cycles, it becomes a one trip code. BTW, circuit low means low voltage and that is due to the voltage not getting to the solenoid or the solenoid is shorted or refusing to open or the wire is shorted to ground. An open circuit will read a high voltage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted August 2, 2016 Author Share Posted August 2, 2016 (edited) O2 sensor has been replaced and that code has been cleared - and it is just one front sensor on the 2002 - in the front of the cat convertor - 5 wire connector... still have not dealt with the evap issues - hoping to get to those this coming weekend... we have gone from 7 codes (both hard set and pending) to just 3 now. yay! Edited August 2, 2016 by heartless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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