Hot-Rodding a Brat in two stages - Suggestions?

[DaveT]

My first Subie, I used to lug more than was good.  Wore the silvery coating off the conn rod bearings.  These engines are not big old V-8s that make power at 2000 RPM. 

 

One of my EA82 engines, I got when it was 2yrs old, 15K miles.  [bought the whole car at 2YRS old]  I put Amsoil synthetic in it, and their filters, and bypass filter.  Never changed the oil, only added as needed.  Towed 1000Lbs on a trailer, sometimes with loads of stuff in the car also.  Often it saw over 5000 RPM winding up to highway speed.   When I disassembled it to reseal at about 150K miles, the bearings were still in factory spec limits.  Still has the factory crosshatch in the bores.  Wrist pins still in spec.   It is now in one of my wagons, still running strong.

A different one, got with fairly high miles, used.  Switched it to the Amsoil setup.  It was run low on coolant, worst case I ever had.  Even got run on the highway with 50 / 50 mix of water and oil in the crank case.  On the highway, at 4000rpm.  A number of times before I realized what was going on.  Blown head gaskets.  The conn rod bearings were ok, but not new spec clearances.  wrist pins, a little loose.  Did the reseal.  It ran great, but burned oil like mad.  1qrt per tank of gas bad.  Amsoil was too expensive to use at that rate.  I had spare engines.  I decided to use up all of my old oil with it.  Used waste oil, atf, mixed 50 / 50 with whatever cheap oil I could find in it.  Even most of the mixed oil & water from the blown head gaskets, a little at a time.  I ran it for years, until one of the heads cracked.  It even passed emissions at least twice.   Similar driving style and loads.

Long story short, tough little high rpm engines.

[Norcalbratcap]

I was not aware of the EJ25 engine. Why put 2.2 heads on a 2.5 engine? You really got me there, lol...

The 2.2 heads give the 2.5 block a lot more compression theres a frankenmotor thread on here somewhere, probably wrong on the numbers but i think the hp goes from 85 or so to 185 if you also use the delta grind cams

 

 

This is a pretty fun read on the topic

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2141800

Edited June 25, 2016 by Norcalbratcap

[ferp420]

i highly dought you can shoe horn a 6 cylender in a brat the ea81 is a small motor if i remeber right even the ej22 needs the frame rails cut to fit because its probly a foot or so wider than the ea81 and the wait will be a issue for the suspention so unless your a kick but fabricator or have a lot of time and or money the ej swap isent the best idea the spfi fuel injection system should be cheap at the junk yard and will bolt on the multi spark discharge box is fairly cheap that and a good tune up and it will feel like a new car the msd box alone increesed my hill climbing speeds from 45 mph to 55 mph with a 5" lift and 30" tires no other mods gave me results like that and ive done the port and polish shaved heads and block custom intake and exhaust but the cheap msd style ignition box made by far the biggest differance

[86BRATMAN]

The ej22 fits just fine in the frame rails of an ea81 body. It's the dohc motors that have clearance problems.

[TomRhere]

The ej22 fits just fine in the frame rails of an ea81 body. It's the dohc motors that have clearance problems.

Yep! And the ER27 XT6 6 cylinder engine will fit, just where the heck to put the radiator is an issue.

Non-turbo EJ is the way to go for ease of fitment, wiring is another story in itself, but doable.

[RAD]

Just pretend it's not yours and you just stole it.

Get out there and beat the snot out of it.

You'll be surprised at how well it will like that.

 

I've ran a few of my EA81's up to 60 mph in 3rd, that's spinning things pretty good.

 

Keep oil in them, and keep coolant level good, and these little engines will run a long time.

Good solid lower end in them.

 

Yes, there's been a few what threw a rod, but that is as rare as hen's teeth.

 

Right, right, right, and... right. Lol...

[RAD]

The ej22 fits just fine in the frame rails of an ea81 body. It's the dohc motors that have clearance problems.

Thank you for that crucial detail ! Thank, thank you.

 

Despite all that has been said by everyone, I still want a basic dual carb engine for the brat. If I want to go extreme performance, I have my eye on something very special in another Subaru, but am keeping it to myself for now, lol...

The Brat will need another, better engine, more HP, so in the next year I will likely be fixing up TWO Subarus, lol.

[Sapper 157]

The words "basic" and "dual carb" dont really work in the same sentence haha lol 

[RAD]

The words "basic" and "dual carb" dont really work in the same sentence haha lol 

"Basic" as in No turbo, No electronic ignition (initially), No timing belts, etc. Typical EA81 but with dual carbs.

[Sapper 157]

"Basic" as in No turbo, No electronic ignition (initially), No timing belts, etc. Typical EA81 but with dual carbs.

Were you thinking Weber or Hitiachi?

[RAD]

Were you thinking Weber or Hitiachi?

 

Probably Weber.

Something has come up, I will post here, but feel the need for a separate thread.

 

I may be able to get an old, bad condition XT6 with good engine and the guys says it now has a Mercedes Benz 5 speed automatic Transmission. Hard to believe that one, it looks like it was installed clean, no signs of rigging or makeshift adaptation.

The interior is bad, paint is bad, and he  can't find the title.

BUT...

IF.. I could put that 2.7L XT6 engine in my Brat, it would likely be the biggest damned engine I could put in there, and the maximum Horsepower possible without Turbo or Super Charging.

IT would stil have a timing chain, etc. and if I used the transmission, no 4WD, at least until I got another engine.

But hell, horsepower would never again be a problem!

The deal is, though, fitting it into the engine compartment. Someone here said it could fit, except for the radiator.

 

So here's the new possible direction - It is in fact possible to put an XT6, 2.7 Liter, 6 cylinder engine in a Brat without cutting and welding the hell out of things?

I might be able to get the XT6 for well less than it would cost for any decent engine, very tempting.

 

 

 

 

 

[TomRhere]

Replied to your other thread.

 

But yes it has been done by a few people on here in BRATs, and another in a FWD Hatch.

[RAD]

Thanks. Good to know its been done more than a couple times.

[RAD]

I have learned a lot in this process....

Chiefly, that any XT, be it 1800 or 6 cylinder is just not worth my time.

Regular 1800 XTs don't have any more power than my Brat, and XT6s engines are expensive and problematic to service.
My Brat is cooler and sexier than either, so I will just stick with Brat(s).

 

So far, the most exciting suggestion was using a EJ2500 with EJ2200 heads, both to solve the reliability\blowing head gaskets issue, and to further increase the power through the higher compression.
It would be complicated and involved, and is something for another time to do, but seems like the best option for the most power as far as the engine itself.

 

So, answer seems obvious, but I have to make sure - is the EA81 engine the only one without a timing chain\belt, and that can run without Electronic ignition?

 

 Thanks,

[ferp420]

any motor can be carbed with enuff effert but why ive herd the early 2.2 have a spot for a distributor and a carb mount can be fabed up relativly easy the ea81 dosent have alot of aftermarket suport so finding parts like intake manifolds for a duel carb set up is gona be fun there not hard to make but it dose take some fab skills i ran duels on my vw gia they kicked but as long as they where sinked but after 1 drive they usaly went outof sink and where worse than the single carb my bus also had factory duels on it same problem worked ok for a while but over all was a problem set up it now runs a single progresive weber and works well

 

the best most noticable cheapest simplest mod to get more driveabuility out of that motor is to do a good tune up and add a multi spark ignition like a msd or procomp or mallory or high fire or or or i got a procomp used but new in box off of ebay for $100 its been on vw subarus and my scout and it was by far the best mod to any of those rigs on my ea82 loyale it alone gave me a extra 10mph going up big hills it was the differance between stalling when trying for a second gear start and after the install it took off in second like first was before my ea82 runs 30" tires and befor it spun a bearing would out pull the turbo model up to about 60 mph i did do alot of work

to the motor but the biggest increese was the ignition box ive disconected it just to see what the engine mods did alone and then with it conected back up and easly 10 mph gain going up hill with mods and with out mods when the car was stock i could pull a hill around 55-60 after the lift and big tires it droped to around 45-50 engine mods with big tires brought me back up to50- 55 range the procomp ignition stock tires and motor i was able to hold 65 up the hill with the mods and ignition and 30" tires im holding 65 up that hill so basicly the ignition alone was enuff to overcome the performance drop from the effective gearing change from going to larger tires all that motor work months of porting polishing shaving the heads and block cleaning preping and building dident give the same drivable noticeable differance that a simple little 4 wires only ignition box did oh and the motor still dosent like alot of fuel

[subarubrat]

i highly dought you can shoe horn a 6 cylender in a brat the ea81 is a small motor if i remeber right even the ej22 needs the frame rails cut to fit because its probly a foot or so wider than the ea81 and the wait will be a issue for the suspention so unless your a kick but fabricator or have a lot of time and or money the ej swap isent the best idea the spfi fuel injection system should be cheap at the junk yard and will bolt on the multi spark discharge box is fairly cheap that and a good tune up and it will feel like a new car the msd box alone increesed my hill climbing speeds from 45 mph to 55 mph with a 5" lift and 30" tires no other mods gave me results like that and ive done the port and polish shaved heads and block custom intake and exhaust but the cheap msd style ignition box made by far the biggest differance

You CAN fit an XT6 motor in a Brat, I did it, but you cannot have a front mounted radiator, I had to go with an above the engine one like a hummer, not an easy swap but can be done. If you look at the link to my BRAT I detail a pretty solid EA81 power build.

 

If you want a ton of cheap modern power, I would get one of the JDM 2Ltr turbos that are being imported by the ton, it fits and with minor mods you over 300Hp.

Edited July 8, 2016 by subarubrat

[ferp420]

it has been 15 years since ive had a ea81 my memory is alittle off

[subarubrat]

XT engine in: http://subarubrat.com/PICS/er27intruckhires.jpg

 

Hood: http://subarubrat.com/PICS/hood3.jpg

 

Radiator, fans not shown.... http://subarubrat.com/PICS/radin.JPG

 

I ended up going to a double split radiator when I went to the MP62 supercharger, same idea though. That was a long time ago. Like I said it will all fit but it is allot of work for 165~300Hp when you can just drop in a JDM 2Ltr turbo and MT, and of course the ability to go to EJ brakes, diff, etc. is so much more effective for the work and money.

[RAD]

I remember the issue being brought up before about changing out the ignition, and that does make sense.

However, if that would still technically be an electronic ignition, I would hesitate going that route.

I have been in touch with JDM, they don't have anything that will bolt in, don't have any dual carb set-up, and it took them WEEKS to answer my inquiry. They are also a bit expensive.

 

If I solve the bolt-in issue first, the easiest overall answer would be to get a junker subaru with a usable engine, and use that for the swap. That would mean timing belts, electronic ignition, Turbo, etc.

 

I have tried carb adjustments, running premium gas, lightening it up, etc, with no obvious results so far.

The performance ignition seems like a good idea that I could keep\swap with a new engine if\when I replace it.

 

I have been told that a dual carb set-up cannot be done right with an\the engine made for it because it will not bolt up right.
Even if dual carbs come out of sync, maybe I could rig-up something for a remote to manually adjust the carbs, that might solve that problem.

 

So... I assume that reality is that the EA81 and maybe the EA82 are the only engines without timing belts ???

[subarubrat]

JDM just means Japanese Domestic Market, there are hundreds of importers of JDM parts all over, if you don't like one importer pick another.

 

With a modern fuel injected turbo engine a dual carb setup would be of no value, the hottest dual carb EA81 might turn just a little over 100Hp while the starting point for even an NA swap is about 150, and 300 on a turbo is super easy. While not "bolt in" swapping in modern Subaru engines into older Subarus has been done and documented many times. Do a quick google search for Tony Rigoli Brumby and see what all he has done! Many people on this forum have done EJ swaps as well.

 

https://youtu.be/ng5xFzjf_JM

 

I think your putting way to much emphasis on dual carb, they were rare and are a neat novelty but you can swap in a Weber 32/36 and flow better with a single carb and once tuned it is set and forget.

 

EA81 is gear drive for the cam, EA82 is timing belt driven. The belts on the EA82 are about as reliable as anything else, the weak point is the oil pump gasket leaking and causing annoying lifter tick.

 

When I built my EA81 in my current Brat I was going for a stock plus 10% for the whole truck, lightly modded, so keeping the original engine was a must. If I wanted reliable raw power with excellent reliability and value I would go right to a JDM turbo swap.

Edited July 9, 2016 by subarubrat

[ferp420]

the realy nice part about the msd ignition is you dont have to mod anything and can be returned to stock in 2 min on the side of the road there is a power a ground and 4 wires 2 hook to the + and - wires off of th coil the other two hook to the coil itself in place of the - and + wires so easy i felt like a idiot when i asked how to hook it up my self because its so simple it just triggers the plugs to fire twice giveing a very complete burn it only fires multiple times under 3k but by that time our motors are running in there powerband you wouldent think it would help that much but the differance has been amazing on every rig ive ever used it on but once you go multi port fuel injection say if you do go for a ej swap i dought it would help much

[turbosubarubrat]

If your stuck on carbs stick in a ej25 99 plus block with a set of phase 1 ej22 heads and delta cams. Use a early ford escort escort distributor and a 4 barrel carb or a set of weber down drafts. The 99 ej25 is 165hp stock add the 2.2 heads and cams is somewhere between 185-210hp fuel injected.

[RAD]

JDM just means Japanese Domestic Market, there are hundreds of importers of JDM parts all over, if you don't like one importer pick another.

 

With a modern fuel injected turbo engine a dual carb setup would be of no value, the hottest dual carb EA81 might turn just a little over 100Hp while the starting point for even an NA swap is about 150, and 300 on a turbo is super easy. While not "bolt in" swapping in modern Subaru engines into older Subarus has been done and documented many times. Do a quick google search for Tony Rigoli Brumby and see what all he has done! Many people on this forum have done EJ swaps as well.

 

https://youtu.be/ng5xFzjf_JM

 

I think your putting way to much emphasis on dual carb, they were rare and are a neat novelty but you can swap in a Weber 32/36 and flow better with a single carb and once tuned it is set and forget.

 

EA81 is gear drive for the cam, EA82 is timing belt driven. The belts on the EA82 are about as reliable as anything else, the weak point is the oil pump gasket leaking and causing annoying lifter tick.

 

When I built my EA81 in my current Brat I was going for a stock plus 10% for the whole truck, lightly modded, so keeping the original engine was a must. If I wanted reliable raw power with excellent reliability and value I would go right to a JDM turbo swap.

 

I am finding equal amounts of difficulty and \earning on this subject...

In the end, preference is everything, there is more than one way to do most things, and the more I deal with this subject, the more I feel solid about the EA81 engine, somehow modded for performance.

 

Your statement "you can swap in a Weber 32/36 and flow better with a single carb and once tuned it is set and forget." is very encouraging where that is concerned. It has the promise of improved performance, with not so much expense and complication.  I like that.

Just to fully explore the issue, is that 'THE' best carb I can get to make the biggest difference?

 

I did find this link helpful for a basic understanding of this to me:

 

http://www.redlineweber.com/html/application_guide/making_the_right_choice_32.htm

 

 

I am now focusing on a very particular goal: How to rig an EA81 engine for performance, as odd as that sounds.

My lack of performance is mostly due to:

(A) An older, smaller, less sophisticated engine.

( Having a 4 speed tranny, when a 5 speed would itself be an overall improvement where gear ratios are concerned.

© Going up a mountain grade, as otherwise on freeways and especially city streets are concerned it does ok.

 

I have a thing about no timing belt(s), and no electronic ignition, which admittedly goes against performance in general.

But that is the core issue emerging out of this - to get more power/speed out of that EA81.

Edited July 11, 2016 by RAD

[RAD]

the realy nice part about the msd ignition is you dont have to mod anything and can be returned to stock in 2 min on the side of the road there is a power a ground and 4 wires 2 hook to the + and - wires off of th coil the other two hook to the coil itself in place of the - and + wires so easy i felt like a idiot when i asked how to hook it up my self because its so simple it just triggers the plugs to fire twice giveing a very complete burn it only fires multiple times under 3k but by that time our motors are running in there powerband you wouldent think it would help that much but the differance has been amazing on every rig ive ever used it on but once you go multi port fuel injection say if you do go for a ej swap i dought it would help much

 

Yes, makes perfect sense. I am pretty much decided that this will be a basic and solid part of the solution.

For what little difference it makes, the Brat has some kind of dual contact\spark type spark plugs, combined with the coil you mention would mean the best and most complete burn of the fuel, in a way doing better with what I already have.

 

I'm sold on this much, anyway, lol...

[RAD]

If your stuck on carbs stick in a ej25 99 plus block with a set of phase 1 ej22 heads and delta cams. Use a early ford escort escort distributor and a 4 barrel carb or a set of weber down drafts. The 99 ej25 is 165hp stock add the 2.2 heads and cams is somewhere between 185-210hp fuel injected.

 

Ok, this sounds very involved, and not just a weekend task, but does sound like very serious performance.

It may be the optimum solution down the road if I ever change my mind about the EA81 engine.

 

I wonder... Can a distributor from an early Ford Escort actually work in a Subaru as-is?

A 4 barrel carb sounds like some serious possibility, but (1) would need a custom adapter plate/base of some sort I am sure, and (2) It has been said that if the base engine is not powerful enough, dumping more gas into it may not be the solution, as the engine cannot make enough use of it.

 

I am very curious about " a set of weber down drafts" - can you explain this a little more? Sounds interesting...

Thank you.