Need some input on a difficult decision

[vikingDBA]

So my son has a 2003 Legacy GT with the 2.5 engine.

We got this car for reasonable deal a few years ago with low miles.

 

It now has 110K miles on it, and it runs great except the dreaded head gasket issue has now reared it's head.

The engine runs fine and it's not leaking that much.  Basically we caught this before it could become a big issue.

 

BUT.  The big question is how realiable are these cars. If I sink $2500 in this to replace the head gaskets/valve covers (and waterpump / timing belt while they are in there).   Do the transmissions in these generally last (automatic).

 

Over all my son really likes this car, I'm just pretty hesitant to sink that much money into a car that is 13 years old.

However the engine does run well (even with the gasket issue) and everything else seems fine.   Just want to get some feedback if others have went ahead and fixed this, or if I'm just crazy if I sink that kinda money in this car.

 

All feedback welcome. 

Thanks!

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

external leaking? If it's coolant - try using the Subaru Coolant Conditioner - use it only once and only per instructions on the bottle. people report reduced or cured external leaks.

 

oil you may be able to live with if extra vigilant checking the dipstick.

 

You are actually way overdue for the timing belt system to be serviced - it's 105 MONTHS if that occurs before 105K miles.

 

many used cars would need a timing belt - or, the previous owners will claim they did it, and either they lie, or they did belt-only which is not a proper TB system servicing.

 

has the transmission been serviced? the 4EAT is generally robust - many people have them last a VERY long time with just fluid changes and being diligent about same-size tires.

 

3 drain/fill/drive-a-little fluid change cycles on the trans gets about 85% new fluid if you DIY.

 

if you DO replace the headgaskets, have the heads properly surfaced and strongly consider using multi layer steel gaskets. (turbo motor type)

 

I'm no expert here - but I think the car could give you very good service for a while going forward. It will never be a new car, but it may not be the money pit some other used car would be.

[Numbchux]

I agree that they are great cars with a little preventative maintenance, except this:

 

if you DO replace the headgaskets, have the heads properly surfaced and strongly consider using multi layer steel gaskets. (turbo motor type)

 

Get the OE gaskets for the correct engine. Subaru has superceded them to a MLS gasket. Subaru makes a head gasket kit that has everything you need to replace one head gasket on a 2000-early 2005 SOHC EJ25 (non-VVT). Getting 2 of these kits is cheaper than piecing together what you need for one job, and you'll end up with several extra gaskets. 10104AA070XX

 

Or get a Fel-pro kit for everything else, and just use the OE Head gaskets instead, most current number is 11044AA633

 

 

It's not a bad idea to have the heads checked, but if the car hasn't overheated, there's very little chance that there's anything wrong with them. I didn't on my '03 Outback

Edited July 26, 2016 by Numbchux

[idosubaru]

1.  this might cost $5 to repair. 

The Subaru additive repairs nearly 100% of intitial leaks of OEM factory installed headgaskes.  So if this is the first time it's started to leak you're a coolant change/$5 bottle away from repairing it.  

 

2.  $2,500 seems high.  but if the vehicle is in good shape/been well taken care of it should be worth it. 

a.  use Subaru turbo headgasket, they're more robust, others use the stock and Fel Pro gasket with good success.

b.  resurface the heads only.  do not get a full on valve job, pressure test, etc - that's unnecessary on these heads, basicaly a waste of money, they don't warp, they don't crack, etc.  it's pointless to check them because you resurface for finish too, not just flatness.

 

*** The main hard part is machine shops will respond with "we won't warranty the heads if you don't do the full valve job/pressure testing, you could have cracks or warped heads"....and then that's compounded if the mechanic is using a 3rd party shop (often the case) because the mechanic is the 3rd person go between "well th shop said... so we have to".  if i go in person, since i do the work myself, i just decline the warranty and tell them i'm totally comfortable with whatever happens if they just resurface it because it's totally pointless anyway - subaru heads don't warp and crack or have any issues that need inspected. You'll just have a hard time navigating that without any control of the situation and that's about a $500 difference for something pointless.  The shop should be able to walk through that for you or you can talk to the machine shop yourself (the dealers routinely will tell you which machine shop they use/send stuff too) and call them yourself.  

Or pay me $150 and I'll navigate that for you. 

 

c.  install a timing belt kit at the same time - they're a bit over $100 on amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Gates-TCK304-Timing-Belt-Component/dp/B002R8HMAY

d.  install new cam seals and valve covers while it's all apart. 

 

plugs and wires would be smart too but they're not going to cause any break downs or major issues if you're trying to go cheap.

 

Can a used/older car have issues?  Yes, of course.  But done right you have a great chance at another 50-100k without any big surprises. 

[idosubaru]

additive, it's avialble locally for cheaper probably but just for illustration:

https://www.amazon.com/Subaru-SOA635071-Coolant-System-Conditioner/dp/B00IGZP2UE/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1469560029&sr=1-1&keywords=subaru+additive

 

follow the directions on the bottle. 

 

it's required for your engine and Subaru put it in every EJ25 they sold/worked on. 

[vikingDBA]

I'm having the dealer do it, I trust these guys they even discussed with me about which head gaskets should be used and so on.  I shopped around and their price is inline with everyone else and they explained things pretty well.

The car has never overheated, the oil leak isn't that much but I do think it has gotten a little worse as of late.  Never has been run with the oil really low either.

 

Thanks for the help. It's just one of those decisions I try to get as much information as I can prior.

 

The $2500 includes timing belt, water pump, valve covers don't think the cam seals are in that though.

Edited July 26, 2016 by vikingDBA

[idosubaru]

What about the additive I mentinoed?  You might be $5 away from repairing it?

 

Dealers often don't resurface the heads, which is unwise for surface finish reasons - they'll say they "check them" and "don't warp"...which has nothing to do with surface roughness/finish.

Most don't use the turbo headgaskets either.

 

The cam seals are more likely to fail than EJ water pumps, but the words "water pump" have more airplay and familiarity so they are typically included even though there's no statistically quantitative reason to do so on EJ engines. 

[1 Lucky Texan]

you could ask in a new thread for an independent mechanic near your city - might save you several hundred dollars.

[vikingDBA]

What about the additive I mentinoed?  You might be $5 away from repairing it?

 

Dealers often don't resurface the heads, which is unwise for surface finish reasons - they'll say they "check them" and "don't warp"...which has nothing to do with surface roughness/finish.

Most don't use the turbo headgaskets either.

 

The cam seals are more likely to fail than EJ water pumps, but the words "water pump" have more airplay and familiarity so they are typically included even though there's no statistically quantitative reason to do so on EJ engines. 

 

The additive is for the coolant, I think I'm weeping out oil. I guess the coolant additive helps the head gasket regardless, just sayin.  I think my weeping has progressed to the point that the gaskets just need replaced. Though I might be getting a sales job on that.

 

However, I've talked to 3 different mechanics, 2 different franchised subaru dealers, and one independent who does really good work.

All 3 of them are within $100 of each other for the work.  2 of them that that inspected it told me that the gaskets just need to be replaced. (the third just gave me an estimate for getting the work done)

 

The subaru dealer i'm going to says they will warranty their work for 2 years.  I hate spending this much, but i can't have my son going on one of his hikes to the middle of nowhere (which he likes to do)  and have the car break down.  That and I don't think any damage has been done to the engine at this point.  If I am going to keep it I don't want to risk getting to a situation where the engine does get damaged.

 

My bigger thing is I don't want to get into a money pit if there are other known issues on this model/year.    But if people generally deal with this issue and then put 200K miles on them without major repairs I'm ok with the routine stuff.

[987687]

Honestly, it sounds like you have your heart set on fixing the car. If it has ZERO rust and otherwise in good condition, go ahead and have it fixed.

 

If you have any rust on the car, though, probably not worth dumping a huge pile of money into mechanicals. The rear subframes on those cars have really bad rust issues and are probably really expensive to have replaced. I've done a few of them and they kinda suck.

[vikingDBA]

i really do appreciate the advice.  Before I pulled the trigger on the head gasket, I had the dealer inspect the car to see what it would need to pass inspection (due end of next month).   Just because I didn't want to fix that if it needed a pile of work.

 

well...  the dealer says it needs a pile of work.

 

Dang thing is the car only has 102K miles on it, and it runs like a top.  The engine just purrs along.   Transmission seems solid.

Some of the stuff I'm gonna fix myself. I mean the dealer wants to charge $26 to replace a lightbulb on a license plate, and $30 to replace one of the fog lights.  The only thing that might be a bit tricky is the windshield washer button isn't working,and I suspect that I need to replace the entire stalk.  (dealer quoted $140 to replace that).

The biggies where 2 rotors and brakes ($550),  and a front CV axle and differential seal ($540).  Oh and they wanted me to replace all 4 tires, though only one fails inspection. (no i won't just replace one tire)

 

I know a mechanic that will do the rotor/brakes for just over half that. The front CV axle I dunno if he'll do that or not. 

 

I do not have any rust issues.    But I think I've taken a completely different mindset now with this information. 

Gonna keep it on the road for the minimium I can, hope the additive helps the head gasket and go from there.   Unfortunately not in a situation right now to trade it in on something new(er).  But I might do so within the next 6 months, but that means I have to get the inspection done as it runs out end of next month.

 

Anyhoo thanks again.   Any tips on monitoring the head gasket situation?  Other then check coolant/oil levels regularly?  Like I said the engine purrs like a kitten, really is a shame all this other stuff broke.

 

(Oh and I found out that the AC has a leak and the high pressure line and o-ring need replaced to the tune of $500)  This is my son's car so some of this stuff was a little bit of a surprise.

Edited July 28, 2016 by vikingDBA

[1 Lucky Texan]

first - cars that get low-usage are considered 'severe duty', seals can dry-out, fluids emulsify, rubber ages, etc. . The maintenance schedule has a TIME side as well as mileage and probably several fluids changes have been missed.

 

you really need a timing belt system service. That and most of the other items can easily be DIY or done by an independent mechanic. Some items may just need xtra vigilance. Others you can save up for.

 

any neglected 13 year old car could easily need these or more repairs.

Edited July 28, 2016 by 1 Lucky Texan

[brus brother]

My 05 started an external hg oil leak around 105k miles. I am currently at 170K miles. I have free oil changes for life with dealer and they always report that the leak has gotten worse (oil leak). OK so I keep a paper bag weighted down with rocks in the garage to catch the oil drips and have never run low on oil between my free oil changes. Am thinking about renting the car out to seal driveways. People around here just love that stink of fresh oil soaking into their crumbly asphalt driveways.

Anyways, a local subie shade tree mechanic here in CT quoted ~$400 labor to replace hgs. He also knows my car and all of its other deficiencies (wheel bearings. P0420 - and after all testing and praying, points to cat being shot, climate control motor going out) His recommendation... just drive it!

It is my station car and I'm not headed to the outback in my Outback. If it is still kicking around 210K for the next tb scheduled replacement, I'll probably do the hgs at that point.

As in your case, my car still runs well enough so tough call but if you haven't done the tb service, hunt around some more. It may be worth your while from Harrisonbuirg, Pa to take a road trip and park in GrossGary's driveway and block him in until he agrees to work on your car!   

Edited July 28, 2016 by brus brother

[vtwinjunkie]

I would never pay a dealer to that other stuff. That can be done yourself or by a local mechanic much cheaper. 

 

also factor in an alignment after you do the front axle shaft seals. 

[987687]

Why would you need an alignment after doing an axle? If you do it by pulling the strut, just mark the position of the camber bolt.

[heartless]

 

 Oh and they wanted me to replace all 4 tires, though only one fails inspection. (no i won't just replace one tire)

 

 

 

I am curious as to why only 1 tire is failing inspection? there has to be a reason for that.... they should all be pretty close in wear if everything is up to snuff - having one bad and the rest ok says there is an issue somewhere that needs to be addressed...

Edited July 30, 2016 by heartless

[vikingDBA]

just an update.  so after putting in the coolant additive and changing the oil.  went on a few trips, put about 700 miles on the car.

 

Oil level, and coolant level are still exactly where they where before the trips.

 

gonna get some of the other stuff done by a mechanic i know that's a lot cheaper. 

[1 Lucky Texan]

great!

 

get that timing belt system serviced - major $$$$ if it fails.