Push to Start

[DagdaS]

I'm hatching a plan. I think it's a Good plan. I'm pretty sure it'll save me money and a headache.

 

I want to bypass my ignition switch. The reason is that it's very twitchy. It doesn't like turning if the key isn't in just the perfect spot, and you can remove the key without shutting down. She's a 1980 DL Wagon with an EJ22 swap, and there's already a switch installed to allow it to even start. The plan is to move that one to a very well hidden spot, turn the ignition key so that the wheel lock is disengaged, take the accessory wire and put it on a switch, and install a nice big friendly red button that just begs to be pushed. That way I'm not paying to have a New barrel put into the ignition, and I don't have to worry about the ignition failing. Just hop in, flip the two switches, push the button and roll. And few worries about someone stealing her, as the switch that even lets her crank is hidden.

 

Any critiques, issues, suggestions, crazed ideas? 

[jsyme]

Wow a 1980 DL with a push to start button. I found a Prius start button at RockAuto for $141 USD link

for reference: I bought a non runing 1989 GL wagon last week for $200 USD

 

no... but practically now, I took the tumblers out of my Honda Odyssey ignition, I think there were 6 and I took 4 out and it made a world of difference. i.e. the key worked again.  It's better than a screw driver stabbed in the column.

[turbosubarubrat]

You can by a new ignition key switch for $15 off ebay.

[DagdaS]

You can by a new ignition key switch for $15 off ebay.

I'd have to replace the cylinder and the ignition switch, both. You cannot get a cylinder for $15, that don't happen. Then to have someone go through and tweak the pins for My key after paying for it, uh uh.

 

Not paying for a branded part anywhere. You can buy just a push button, wire, and fuse reasonably cheap. Push and hold the button until she catches, just as you would the key in the ignition, and Vroom, we go.

[turbosubarubrat]

Keep on not believing it then http://www.ebay.com/itm/301812313553?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT. 3 actually good non pos toggle/push button switches will cost more than the $15. I would just put in the key switch and have the starter on a push button.

[skishop69]

+1 Older model cylinders do not get keyed. They come assembled and because of design, most cannot be re keyed. The door lock cylinders though, I know, can be. If you want the same key, take the door cylinders to a locksmith after you put in the new ignition. Whole deal will be like $40. You need high current push button and toggle switches or they will burn up and that will be close to $30. Buy cheap ones, and they will burn up. If you have an EJ swap with toggle switches, then it wasn't done correctly. I wouldn't do it unless it was an absolute last resort. JMTC

[DagdaS]

The phrase was "Reasonably" cheap. I'm planning to buy the right kind of parts to do what I'm after. As to the toggle switch, I ain't gonna cry, I didn't do the swap myself, I bought it that way. It functions quite nicely and should frustrate someone at some point, especially if I move it to a less obvious spot. What I'd like to do is get a rocker for it, as that has a nice low profile, and will be more easily concealed. The whole idea is to get rid of the need for the key, as it will just fail again. The ignition cylinder has been replaced at least once, and is failing for the "second" time. I'm not gonna fight with it. Bypass is reasonably simple. Too many years jury rigging bypasses.

 

"Oh, your sensor for your cooling fan has died, that's a $60 part, plus labor." Nope, that's why God made wire, toggles, and fuses. 35 minutes after getting back from the parts store I had a functional cooling fan that I just turned on whenever I felt like it. (previous vehicle)

[musubk]

I start mine with a toggle switch and push button, see here at 5:59 

 

It would have been easier to wire into my perfectly functional key cylinder, but I prefer it this way; I will eventually be moving all of my controls into the switch panel. It's not 'wrong', it just depends on how you want to control your car. Electrically it's identical to the factory setup.

 

It's also incorrect that you need 'high current' switches, because there is no high current going through here. The switch/button go into relays, and the high current goes through the relay instead of the button/switch. That's the whole point of a relay.

Edited July 28, 2016 by musubk

[skishop69]

Wrong-o. The ignition switch IS a high current switch and only a few relays are used. High current in a car is anything over 20-30 amps depending on the car.The ignition switch handles most of the load for the car which can pull 40-60 amps. I know, because I've used an amp meter to check the load on the ignition switch with all options operating. Most toggle switches are rated at 10-15 amps and will not take even 40 amps for extended periods without the danger of overheating or drastically shortening the life of the switch. Twice I've seen fires due to someone using a toggle switch in place of their ignition switch. One was a smaller dash fire that rendered the car useless because the dash harness was burned beyond repair along with the dash, and the other the whole car went up. You're literally playing with fire. It's not a matter of if, it's when. Almost 20 years I've been an electrical diagnostic tech with a degree in electronics, so if it sounds like a being an a**, it's because you need to know what you're talking about before spouting off. The exception to the rule is newer cars where power moding is controlled by the body control module and the ignition switch is just a signal switch to tell the BCM what to do and it switches the loads. I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying make sure you do it right. Cost wise, they're both about the same, and if the ignition cylinder keeps going out, it's because you're using a crappy cut key or you've got 10 pounds of crap on your keychain that doesn't belong there. Ignition cylinders are not deigned to take a lateral load. 3 Brats, 2 XT's all over 200k miles on original cylinders with no issues. Do it either way, just do it properly.

[MR_Loyale]

I say go for it! It is YOUR car do what makes you happy. If your push
button burns up, then get a push button wired to a relay. Be sure to
post your pics.

 

People will nay say on anything
you propose. JUST DO IT and enjoy that satisfaction of proving them
wrong. Look forward to the pics.

[turbosubarubrat]

There is a couple good spots if you want to setup a toggle switch panel or panels.The obvious is the 3 factory switch holes on the dash toward the bottom of the cluster panel. Depending on what radio console you have you can mount a piece of sheet or plate metal to it and have quite a few switches on it and still have a radio. If you have a high rise console out of a car with power windows you can mod it to have 5 switches. I need to find some small quality switches for mine when i actually wire up some things to it like kc's on my roof rack. If your interested in it i can take a pic of it in my hatch.

 

[musubk]

Wrong-o. The ignition switch IS a high current switch and only a few relays are used. High current in a car is anything over 20-30 amps depending on the car.The ignition switch handles most of the load for the car which can pull 40-60 amps. I know, because I've used an amp meter to check the load on the ignition switch with all options operating. Most toggle switches are rated at 10-15 amps and will not take even 40 amps for extended periods without the danger of overheating or drastically shortening the life of the switch. Twice I've seen fires due to someone using a toggle switch in place of their ignition switch. One was a smaller dash fire that rendered the car useless because the dash harness was burned beyond repair along with the dash, and the other the whole car went up. You're literally playing with fire. It's not a matter of if, it's when. Almost 20 years I've been an electrical diagnostic tech with a degree in electronics, so if it sounds like a being an a**, it's because you need to know what you're talking about before spouting off. The exception to the rule is newer cars where power moding is controlled by the body control module and the ignition switch is just a signal switch to tell the BCM what to do and it switches the loads. I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying make sure you do it right. Cost wise, they're both about the same, and if the ignition cylinder keeps going out, it's because you're using a crappy cut key or you've got 10 pounds of crap on your keychain that doesn't belong there. Ignition cylinders are not deigned to take a lateral load. 3 Brats, 2 XT's all over 200k miles on original cylinders with no issues. Do it either way, just do it properly.

It's a wire that goes straight from fused power to the relay, there isn't anything else on the circuit. Battery -> fuse -> switch -> tee with one wire to ignition relay signal, the other through the push button to the starter relay signal. Everything else is powered from the high power out on the ignition relay.

Edited July 29, 2016 by musubk

[skishop69]

You are talking EJ cars, not EA. EA series do not have an ignition main relay. Nothing in the schematics and I've never seen one. Even in the EJ cars, the main ignition relay does not run everything. In the case of your swap, it may be wired that way and that's great, it will work safely as long as the relay rating is ok. Almost all cars from like '85 down were powered switched by the ignition switch. After that is when they started to go to relays.

 

Turbosubarubrat has the correct type switches pictured. Again, I never said don't do it or you can't do it. Using the correct switches will cost just as much if not more than the listed cylinder. Just do it right is all.

[musubk]

"Almost all cars from like '85 down were powered switched by the ignition switch. After that is when they started to go to relays."

 

Okay, I'm not really familiar with the OE wiring. I assumed OPs was wired similarly to mine because it's also EJ swapped. I have to admit I'm not even totally sure how the EJ ignition is wired from the factory, as someone had already hacked into the harness I used for the swap.

Edited July 29, 2016 by musubk

[skishop69]

What someone did to yours is not the norm. It's not a bad idea, and I suspect it was done because someone didn't have access to a schematic or they were just lazy, IE: It was easier to do. I'm not 100% sure on the EJ's, but I believe there are at least 3 or 4 main relays for the whole car. No one ever used just one since most automotive relays are only good for 30-40 amps. They break them into groups. One main relay for the engine and drivetrain, one for ABS, one for entertainment, one for lights and so on. I suspect your main relay is just powering the engine and your ignition switch is still handling the rest. If one relay is running everything, I would suggest finding out the rating of the relay. if it is only 30-40 amps, I would add another to power the interior circuits or just wire a second one in parallel so you're splitting the load. Wiring is just one of those things I'm very particular about because I deal with it day in and day out and see horrible things done by people because "My buddy did the same thing" or "It seemed like a good idea". I think it's time for a wiring "Do's and Don'ts" post.

[musubk]

What someone did to yours is not the norm. It's not a bad idea, and I suspect it was done because someone didn't have access to a schematic or they were just lazy, IE: It was easier to do. I'm not 100% sure on the EJ's, but I believe there are at least 3 or 4 main relays for the whole car. No one ever used just one since most automotive relays are only good for 30-40 amps. They break them into groups. One main relay for the engine and drivetrain, one for ABS, one for entertainment, one for lights and so on. I suspect your main relay is just powering the engine and your ignition switch is still handling the rest. If one relay is running everything, I would suggest finding out the rating of the relay. if it is only 30-40 amps, I would add another to power the interior circuits or just wire a second one in parallel so you're splitting the load. Wiring is just one of those things I'm very particular about because I deal with it day in and day out and see horrible things done by people because "My buddy did the same thing" or "It seemed like a good idea". I think it's time for a wiring "Do's and Don'ts" post.

Maybe I'm describing it wrong. I did the swap and wiring, but someone had previously hacked the wiring harness in the EJ22 donor car and someone else had previously hacked the BRAT headlight wiring, so I had to work around both of those. Let me see if I can describe it better. All the relays have a low current 'signal in' (pin 86 by Bosch terminology), a ground (pin 85), and a high current 'power in' (pin 30) that gets connected to a high current 'power out' (pin 87) when the 'signal in' is powered. My ignition relay has 'signal in' coming from the toggle switch on the dash, 'power in' has fused power from the battery, and 'power out' goes to the engine/ECU. The dash ignition switch also goes to 'signal in' on the first of two headlight relays, which ensures the headlights are only on when the ignition is on. I did this just because that's how it works in my Outback and I prefer it that way, using the low beams as daytime running lights that automatically turn off when I kill the ignition. This headlight relay gets 'power in' from headlight switch on the dash (this is really still a low current signal wire), and 'power out' goes to 'signal in' on a second headlight relay. The second headlight relay has 'power in' from fused battery and 'power out' to the headlights.

 

The stereo and fuel pump are on their own (non-relayed) circuits. So one relay carries the engine/ECU, one carries the lights, a third circuit for the stereo, and a fourth circuit for the fuel pump.

[skishop69]

Perfect. That's what you want. The way you described it before, it sounded like it was all one relay. Yeah, dealing with two hacked messes is no fun.

[DagdaS]

I'll have to get ahold of NWSubie and see what all was done when he did the swap (before I bought the monster). That'll be far cheaper than taking it to my mechanic buddy and having him figure it out. Once I know, I'll know what I need to do the job without turning my car into a smoking heap of scrap metal and burnt rubber.

 

I'm wanting to do this so that it'll be pretty well permanent, unless I sell her (which'll Never happen), so I want to do it Right.

 

I'll post pics and a little vid showing it working, when I eventually Do it.

[skishop69]

Cool. My point was, just don't half a** it is all. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.... I just hate to see bad things happen to people with good intentions.